So it would be clearer to have 1 amp profile and several cab presets.
Yes. Profile one amp stack for LP with maybe 3 different mic types and/or positions. That's what I will do.
OS 10 beta is out! Let's get Liquid!
- BayouTexan
- Thread is marked as Resolved.
-
up to this point I don't see the need to move the thread to the Third Party Rigs Discussion (which I don't want to do btw.) but any further discussion of this topic should happen in a dedicated thread in the aforementioned subforum, please.
/nanny alert
Did everyone miss @DonPetersen's request to not have this discussion here any longer?
-
You keep saying what ck or burkhard said but were talking about post LP here. The question is if its a part of the new tonestack experience. Or in my case a happy accident. I may upload my profile to see what you think
The Liquid Profiling function does not change the behavior of the amp volume parameter. The difference between amp volume and rig volume is merely their position in the signal chain. While amp volume is located after the amp stack and before the effect section, allowing you to control the level before it hits the effects the rig volume is located at the very end of the signal chain and where it controls the overall volume of the rig including the effect section. In both cases, the only impact the volume has is in the perceived loudness of the rig. In no case does it change the actual sound of the rig. If you experience a change in sound it must be caused by the device that you use for monitoring the signal which might produce overtones because the volume of the signal arriving at the input of the monitoring device might clip the input section.
-
Ok, so let me rephrase the question here:
Pre-LQP, it was necessary to capture an amp at many gain levels, with many cabs and many mics/mic positions.
Post LQP it is STILL necessary to capture an amp with many cabs and mics correct?
Now, the real question is, since the LQP is based on the max gain of the amplifier, and cabs distort at different volume levels, does that mean that to properly capture an amp/cab profile you should dime the volume as well as the gain to achieve the "most distorted" version of the combination?
It is well known that some artists (like AC/DC) relied heavily on cab distortion for a relatively "clean" sounding distortion.
So ... in that particular case, the REAL amp/cab combo will absolutely change tone based on the main volume
Yeah, I know ..... there's always one in the bunch
-
Yeah, I know ..... there's always one in the bunch
Yep, always one 🤣
Those are some good questions though 👍
Doesn’t matter if you make Direct Amp Profiles I suppose. But for us Studio Profile lovers there are bound to be lots of possibilities.
-
Display More
Ok, so let me rephrase the question here:
Pre-LQP, it was necessary to capture an amp at many gain levels, with many cabs and many mics/mic positions.
Post LQP it is STILL necessary to capture an amp with many cabs and mics correct?
Now, the real question is, since the LQP is based on the max gain of the amplifier, and cabs distort at different volume levels, does that mean that to properly capture an amp/cab profile you should dime the volume as well as the gain to achieve the "most distorted" version of the combination?
It is well known that some artists (like AC/DC) relied heavily on cab distortion for a relatively "clean" sounding distortion.
So ... in that particular case, the REAL amp/cab combo will absolutely change tone based on the main volume
Yeah, I know ..... there's always one in the bunch
Cabs do not distort significantly enough to be audible, especially above the amp distortion which is orders of magnitude greater. What's often thought of as "cab distortion" is simply the amp's power amp being pushed harder and distorting.
This is in fact proven with the Kemper. The fact that Merged Profiles work at all is because cabs do not distort audibly to cause issues with the Kemper's linear Cab block.
With that said, even with LQP it'll still be necessary to capture an amp with many cabs & mics cus different cabs, mics, and mic placements sound different.
-
I'd rather have someone profile an amp in its sweet-spot(s) so I don't have to chase each one down...and then tweak. What I despise are profile groups where they profile every last gain location, regardless of whether or not they sound good.
Guidorist doesn't do a huge number of profiles - but each alteration is usable.
The advantage to the generic EQ is that it behaves the same across all profiles.
-
Cabs do not distort significantly enough to be audible, especially above the amp distortion which is orders of magnitude greater. What's often thought of as "cab distortion" is simply the amp's power amp being pushed harder and distorting.
This is in fact proven with the Kemper. The fact that Merged Profiles work at all is because cabs do not distort audibly to cause issues with the Kemper's linear Cab block.
With that said, even with LQP it'll still be necessary to capture an amp with many cabs & mics cus different cabs, mics, and mic placements sound different.
Not sure this is relevant. Yes, at higher volumes, some amps produce "power amp" distortion vs "preamp distortion"; however, it isn't like the KPA knows that the distortion is from the amp or the speaker cone .... and my point was that this distortion is output volume dependent.
FWIW, I know that cabs (some of them anyway) distort because I have driven them with powerful PA amps that don't distort and still got distortion at high volume even with a clean guitar signal. Most speakers will distort if you push them hard enough. Of course, some speakers do this without hitting the coil xmax while with others, you are about to blow your drivers in your cab when you hear it.
-
Not sure this is relevant. Yes, at higher volumes, some amps produce "power amp" distortion vs "preamp distortion"; however, it isn't like the KPA knows that the distortion is from the amp or the speaker cone .... and my point was that this distortion is output volume dependent.
If you want to capture some distortion that is volume dependent, then of course it goes without saying you need to turn up the volume to present and capture it.
FWIW, I know that cabs (some of them anyway) distort because I have driven them with powerful PA amps that don't distort and still got distortion at high volume even with a clean guitar signal. Most speakers will distort if you push them hard enough. Of course, some speakers do this without hitting the coil xmax while with others, you are about to blow your drivers in your cab when you hear it.
My contention was not that cabs do not distort, rather that they do not distort audibly enough to contribute to an overall guitar amp tone.
-
the amp volume parameter in the Profiler has nothing to do with the power amp volume of the amp that was profiled. It is just a digital gain stage to give you control over the level that hits the effect section.
-
I'd rather have someone profile an amp in its sweet-spot(s) so I don't have to chase each one down...and then tweak. What I despise are profile groups where they profile every last gain location, regardless of whether or not they sound good.
Guidorist doesn't do a huge number of profiles - but each alteration is usable.
The advantage to the generic EQ is that it behaves the same across all profiles.
Yes, I have wondered this too, after seeing that's it's recommended to profile an amp on full gain for LQP.
I've never really liked the sound of any amp with gain at 10 - if I want a really cranked sound, I find it usually sounds better backed off a bit from max gain, e.g. to 8 or 9. So of course with LQP you can then reduce the gain to e.g. 8 with the Kemper - but does this really sound better than just profiling the amp at 8 (or whatever it's high-gain sweet spot is) in the first place?
Usually with profiles, I'm able to find the gain range I'm after in any given pack, it's more the tone stack I'm interested in (as I rarely find profiles where the amp's been EQ'd to my liking!) - so it'd be a shame if all profiles became the sound of the amp set to 10, then artificially backed off with the Kemper's LQP modelling. Unless of course that works REALLY well. Still waiting for the official release to test it myself.
-
the amp volume parameter in the Profiler has nothing to do with the power amp volume of the amp that was profiled. It is just a digital gain stage to give you control over the level that hits the effect section.
Oh. OneEng1 did you mean the Volume parameter within the Amp module of the Kemper? Well then there you go, it's just a volume knob. I thought this was common knowledge, so I misunderstood you and thought you meant the master volume of the amp being profiled.
-
The Liquid Profiling function does not change the behavior of the amp volume parameter. The difference between amp volume and rig volume is merely their position in the signal chain. While amp volume is located after the amp stack and before the effect section, allowing you to control the level before it hits the effects the rig volume is located at the very end of the signal chain and where it controls the overall volume of the rig including the effect section. In both cases, the only impact the volume has is in the perceived loudness of the rig. In no case does it change the actual sound of the rig. If you experience a change in sound it must be caused by the device that you use for monitoring the signal which might produce overtones because the volume of the signal arriving at the input of the monitoring device might clip the input section.
Thanks for clearing that up. Very bizarre indeed i must check again today. i wouldnt see the differemce if they both before my power amp. Maybe the reverb had some wierd effect on pushing the signal into my power section......err. Can i ask, when profiling a clean ch of a amp, what do you do with the gain reference when doing a fresh profilie? Thanks
-
I've been playing LP now for 2 days straight. I hope to hit nirvana on day 3. I still have a few more guitars to try out but this is damn exciting! I never even had time to make popcorn yet.
-
I've been playing LP now for 2 days straight. I hope to hit nirvana on day 3. I still have a few more guitars to try out but this is damn exciting! I never even had time to make popcorn yet.
This.
-
I was experimenting with my profiles and LP. When I select an LP amp in Amp Model I can see morph in Generic Gain and when I press my expression pedal it works, also in Gain. But when I change the settings in Gain and save it The morph is disappeared in RM and when I press my expression pedal morphing is not working.
When I change the morph setting in RM in Generic Gain it is well possible to save the morph settings.
If you set up a gain morph setting in a LP and you save it, it works good. You see the minimum and maximum in Gain. That's the way it should be.
If you change the amp in a LP in Amp Model it also works good.
-
Oh. OneEng1 did you mean the Volume parameter within the Amp module of the Kemper? Well then there you go, it's just a volume knob. I thought this was common knowledge, so I misunderstood you and thought you meant the master volume of the amp being profiled.
I understand the Kemper gain staging. My point was that there can be differences in a real amp that are volume dependent vs gain dependent with regard to the amount of distortion the amp creates.
LQP as documented says to profile the amp with all the eq flat and the amp gain at max. It doesn't specify the volume at which to perform the profile at.
Your contention that the power amp distortion and speaker distortion are a minor part of the overall distortion when the gain on most amps is turned up is really only true for high gain amps IMO.
As a result, even a LQP would need to be profiled at multiple VOLUME levels in order to account for the volume related distortion.
LQP has no other mechanism of handling this volume induced distortion that I can see. It must be profiled at the volume the amp displays the characteristic distortion you wish to recreate on the KPA.
-
Display More
I understand the Kemper gain staging. My point was that there can be differences in a real amp that are volume dependent vs gain dependent with regard to the amount of distortion the amp creates.
LQP as documented says to profile the amp with all the eq flat and the amp gain at max. It doesn't specify the volume at which to perform the profile at.
Your contention that the power amp distortion and speaker distortion are a minor part of the overall distortion when the gain on most amps is turned up is really only true for high gain amps IMO.
As a result, even a LQP would need to be profiled at multiple VOLUME levels in order to account for the volume related distortion.
LQP has no other mechanism of handling this volume induced distortion that I can see. It must be profiled at the volume the amp displays the characteristic distortion you wish to recreate on the KPA.
What is this "volume" you're talking about? On guitar amps, we're talking about the master volume knob, yes? Then of course, you need to turn up the master volume if the "master volume turned up" amp tone is what you want to capture in a Kemper profile. This goes without saying, so I dunno what the point is and calling it "the real question" and whatnot when it's been standard practice for a decade.
-
Your contention that the power amp distortion and speaker distortion are a minor part of the overall distortion when the gain on most amps is turned up is really only true for high gain amps IMO.
Oh and I never said this.
-
Just to clarify, in general most amps distort either at the power amp or at the preamp. Traditional old school amps like Fenders, Vox, Plexi, etc. get most of the distortion from the power amp. More modern amps keep the power amp clean and get most of the characteristic distortion from the preamp.
This is why the Kemper's gain knob, along with the ability to move the tone stack to pre or post the gain stage, just works. And it'll just work for most amps with Liquid Profiles too.
