The best way to manage output level

    As a user of different profiles (and who doesn't...), I always need to adapt the output level. I'd like to know what's the best way to do so, because there are many ways to establish this.


    I'd be grateful for some tips! :)


    Rob.

    Hi robnooi to match the Level between clean and dirty profiles you can use the clean sens parameter in the input section.


    Also you can use the Rig Volume in the Rig section to lower or higher the volume of a Rig.

    Kemper Stage - Macbook Air 2017 - macOS Catalina 10.15.7 - Logic Pro X

    Like 1

    Clean Sense and Distortion Sense are global and can't be saved on a per-rig basis.


    My understanding is that Clean sense is not meant for matching different profiles, but matching volume levels of the same profile with different gain settings. Note the video here only deals with one profile with different gain settings. Distortion sense also isn't about different profiles - but matching different guitars with the same profile.


    Amp volume or Rig volume to balance multiple rigs is much more intuitive.


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    “Without music, life would be a mistake.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

    Clean Sense is actually Rig specific unless you lock the Input section. It is also independent beltween browser and performance modes.


    I agree that I wouldn’t use Clean Sense to balance individual rigs though. I would use Rig Volume for that.

    Quote from Wheresthedug

    Clean Sense is actually Rig specific unless you lock the Input section. It is also independent beltween browser and performance modes.


    I agree that I wouldn’t use Clean Sense to balance individual rigs though. I would use Rig Volume for that.

    Thanks - you can tell I work with Clean Sense all the time. Or….y’know….not….🙄

    “Without music, life would be a mistake.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

    Haha 1

    I have never touched Clean sense, I purely use Rig volume.


    I treat the KPA like a multi channel amp and Rig volume is like the channel volume - affects its relative volume to the other channels/rigs.


    You could also use amp volume but there is a dedicated volume knob for rig volume so....


    Obviously make sure you rig volume isn't linked to your master..

    Per rig would mean the values could/would differ for each rig.


    If you lock them - they're the same for everything.

    “Without music, life would be a mistake.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

    So does the rig volume has any effect on the output level that is going to the PA system? For example I have a -18 on the master out level and it seem to work fine there, but If I turn up my rig volume to 12 will it cause the mixer channel to clip?.. The problem that I'm having it I run with a volume pedal and I seem to run out of sustain and I'm and I'm forced to keep re striking the strings at full volume pedal open and it doesn't sound nor feel physically comfortable playing that way.

    I play pedal steel BTW in case any here has any experience with this instrument.

    Quote from T Pillow

    So does the rig volume has any effect on the output level that is going to the PA system? For example I have a -18 on the master out level and it seem to work fine there, but If I turn up my rig volume to 12 will it cause the mixer channel to clip?.. The problem that I'm having it I run with a volume pedal and I seem to run out of sustain and I'm and I'm forced to keep re striking the strings at full volume pedal open and it doesn't sound nor feel physically comfortable playing that way.

    I play pedal steel BTW in case any here has any experience with this instrument.

    You should set 'rig volume' only to minimize the volume difference between all of your rigs to avoid volume discrepancies when changing from one preset to another. Then when all of your rigs play out at the same level, set your master to accommodate the PA at your volume pedals highest level. That way all of your presets will hit the PA at the same level. For instance, if you have 2 presets (1 clean, 1 dirty) and the dirty rig is louder, lower the dirty rig volume to match the clean rig so that switching back and forth does not cause a volume jump or drop. This is not the same as adjust the amp volume in the stack section as rig volume will not affect the overall sound of the rig itself.

    Quote from dfdfan

    This is not the same as adjust the amp volume in the stack section as rig volume will not affect the overall sound of the rig itself.

    Amp Volume and Rig Volume are the same thing unless you have a volume sensitive effect like Compression or Drive/Boost after the stack. In all other situations they do the same thing.

    Quote from dfdfan

    You should set 'rig volume' only to minimize the volume difference between all of your rigs to avoid volume discrepancies when changing from one preset to another. Then when all of your rigs play out at the same level, set your master to accommodate the PA at your volume pedals highest level. That way all of your presets will hit the PA at the same level. For instance, if you have 2 presets (1 clean, 1 dirty) and the dirty rig is louder, lower the dirty rig volume to match the clean rig so that switching back and forth does not cause a volume jump or drop. This is not the same as adjust the amp volume in the stack section as rig volume will not affect the overall sound of the rig itself.

    Just to add/sumerise - the process is really simple:


    1) get your rig volumes balanced between each other. Some will be louder on purpose e.g. solo, so it's about relative volumes. I use rig volume for this purpose but as mentioned you can also use amp volume. I also boost for riffs using morph....

    2) unlink your volumes

    3) If you have a powerhead/rack and are plying through a speaker on stage, use master volume to adjust this. When unlinked it has NO effect on the output to the PA

    4) Set your PA output to -12 to -20 db, anywhere in that range is fine for a PA

    5) Sound check and check your highest volume doesn't clip the desk..


    Done.

    1) learn what clean sens does as others have mentioned. Second, figure out, write down, or remember the ideal clean sens setting for each guitar you use, mindful that this may be a compromise if you have, for example a neck single coil and bridge humbucker. Until this is set correctly, it is a waste of time and counterproductive to try to balance all your rigs.

    2) utilize performance mode. The beauty of the default "crunch" rig that loads by default in a new performance is that you can volume balance all the Rigs you bring into this performance to this reference. This avoids the "telephone game" effect. (You balance rig 2 to rig 1 , a week later rig 3 to 2, then rig 4 to 3, then Rig 5 to 4 and so on. Then you realize that Rig 5 and 1 don't match.) By always balancing new Rig to the same default rig, minor inconsistencies in how perfectly you match will be minimal.

    3) Make necessary adjustments to the amp volume not Rig volume. If you discover you needed to lower the volume of the amp, (say from 5 to 4.6) save it. Then go to browser mode, find that Rig and save the amp volume there to 4.6 as well. That way, if later you'd like to create a new performance that uses that Rig or just the amp again, you can bring it in to that performance and it will already match the reference crunch Rig, and therefore all the other rigs you've balanced to it. The benefit of adjusting the amp volume as opposed to Rig volume (and saving the browse mode version this way) is that should you have a Rig in performance mode where you have dialed in a bunch of effects just so for a particular song, but then decide the amp doesn't suit it well, you can replace the amp in the existing Rig. If your replacement amp was volume balanced already, it will be volume balanced when you plop it into a new Rig.

    *Make such volume adjustments in step 3 when playing alone. Do this with every Rig you will use prior to a gig. The way you cut in a mix will vary on the situation, balance for that in the next step.

    4) Place a graphic EQ effect in the X slot of the Rigs you perform live with. Since your levels area already balanced when playing alone, develop an ear for which EQ adjustments affect how you cut in the mix as you will have less time to make these changes during a sound check. If particular Rigs aren't as loud as others you probably need a bump up in the high mids. Since these rigs already match when playing alone, use the EQ to fix the ones that seem to disappear in a mix.

    5) solo boosts. Most guitarists only have a need for different volumes when soloing. Having an EQ in the X slot is again beneficial. Since it has its own volume control, you can make that adjustment here when you want a solo boost, which also gives you the option to toggle to volume boost. Should you also want to engage an overdrive or boost before the amp section (which tends to just color or increase distortion not perceived volume) you can set it up so one press will toggle both the pre boost and the post volume boost from the EQ.

    6) Delete old performance mode Rigs. If you have a bunch of Rigs made of the same profiles, but which weren't organized or volume balanced, why have them? If it's because they contain specially dialed in effects, then consider saving the effects as presets. If there's a combo of effects you want to keep saved as a single unit, then it's worth taking the time to volume balance its profile to the default Crunch. If you hate losing things permanently, save them to the local folder in Rig manager and delete from the KPA itself. Consider re-naming Rigs you have volume matched with a special character at the end so you can stay organized.

    7) Limit the number of profiles you use in a gig, regardless of how many performances you create using those profiles with song-specific effects. Your core tone, the profile and overdrives pushing them shouldn't be different for every song. Have a set of profiles that give you the gain stages you need. Maybe have a second set you like better for a different guitar you may use. Maybe even have a couple others that do whatever special thing you need for a specific song. But it's hard for the sound tech, the band and even yourself to constantly have your core tone changing.

    I also like to use some amp block compression. If it’s a rig that I may use my guitar volume knob to clean up and I don’t want to lose volume when I clean up, I’ll set this knob at 3 or so.

    Also the KPA is the only digital unit I’m aware of that has volume compensation automatically adjusted when you change the gain, provided that clean sens is set appropriately. Every other unit out there if you make a gain adjustment, then you have to go back and compare the inevitable volume change to another preset to see if the volume still matches.

    Hmm...not sure I agree with all of your points and the added complexity, particularly where you suggest having a set of balanced rigs to reuse.


    The balance of the volume, although the point of this post, is to me the easiest thing to set, takes seconds, so no idea why you would invest in pre balancing the volumes, especially when there are many other factors which could override that. For example, you may want one sound quieter for certain sections, or louder to boost for riffs, so you will end up editing them anyway. Also EQ is also as impactful and volume...



    1) learn what clean sens does as others have mentioned. This is only necessary if you want to switch guitar types on the fly and balance them. I have never touched mine and never needed to. If you stick to your point 7, its hardly a big overhead to match between rigs using the volume.


    3) Make necessary adjustments to the amp volume not Rig volume. The benefit of adjusting the amp volume as opposed to Rig volume (and saving the browse mode version this way) is that should you have a Rig in performance mode where you have dialed in a bunch of effects just so for a particular song, but then decide the amp doesn't suit it well, you can replace the amp in the existing Rig. If your replacement amp was volume balanced already, it will be volume balanced when you plop it into a new Rig. That is such a niche case, the overhead of saving it just to retain a set of balanced rigs. Just not necessary.


    5) solo boosts. Most guitarists only have a need for different volumes when soloing. Having an EQ in the X slot is again beneficial. Since it has its own volume control, you can make that adjustment here when you want a solo boost, which also gives you the option to toggle to volume boost. Then why not either morph volume or have a separate slot. Selecting an effect is slightly hard tap dancing wise and you take up a slot. This emulates the old trick of having an eq pedal in the effects loop to boost for solos ( I did it with my old Laney) and it was always a work around because I didn't have selectable volumes. TBH I also add more gain and a touch more mid and presence, so having a slot dedicated is way easier IMO.



    7) Limit the number of profiles you use in a gig, regardless of how many performances you create using those profiles with song-specific effects. Your core tone, the profile and overdrives pushing them shouldn't be different for every song. Have a set of profiles that give you the gain stages you need. Maybe have a second set you like better for a different guitar you may use. Maybe even have a couple others that do whatever special thing you need for a specific song. But it's hard for the sound tech, the band and even yourself to constantly have your core tone changing. Totally agree with this! I learnt the hard way with this.