I heard the headphone "Space" effect @ NAMM today

Quote from old crow

I use Wills method all the time but it usually adds a weird phasing / modulation.
I'm really looking forward to the headphone space.

Agreed. This is because cranking the "character" knob in the cab settings is just amplifying the peaks and valleys in the speaker's frequency response. This kind of hyper notchy sound is exactly what happens through phase cancellation when you mike up an amp in a tiny room like a closet. We associate this phasey sound with space, hence the illusion. But it's not actually adding space in any real sense. You can get the same effect if you tone match a guitar sound in in Logic's match EQ, pushing the slider past 100% -- all the peaks and valleys get taller/deeper. It's not "realistic" emulation of space in any literal sense, but if it takes the edge off in headphones, so be it.

For better or worse, the classic guitar recordings of last fifty years have almost all been close-miked, "one-dimensional" sounds that are a little scratchy to listen to in phones without a whole band around them.

Quote from db9091

You guys keep talking about Will's headphone settings.

I can't find the thread. Anybody care to give the link or tell us what you are talking about?

Thread

Quote from hm2

Agreed. This is because cranking the "character" knob in the cab settings is just amplifying the peaks and valleys in the speaker's frequency response. This kind of hyper notchy sound is exactly what happens through phase cancellation when you mike up an amp in a tiny room like a closet. We associate this phasey sound with space, hence the illusion. But it's not actually adding space in any real sense. You can get the same effect if you tone match a guitar sound in in Logic's match EQ, pushing the slider past 100% -- all the peaks and valleys get taller/deeper. It's not "realistic" emulation of space in any literal sense, but if it takes the edge off in headphones, so be it.

For better or worse, the classic guitar recordings of last fifty years have almost all been close-miked, "one-dimensional" sounds that are a little scratchy to listen to in phones without a whole band around them.

I'm not sure that's not what the character control is doing (amplifying the peaks and valleys of the frequency match), do you have any reference for that?

In my experience doing a "strength" adjustment on a match eq results in a sonically different result and substantially different tone and frequency response, adjusting the character control in the KPA is a much subtler effect (at least here) that doesn't change the overall frequency response but seems instead to be closer to the effect of raising the number of samples (the resolution) in a match EQ (rather than amplifying difference/peaks troughs) and possibly adding in a little coloration/distortion of it's own. But i could be completely wrong, it would be nice if CK could chip in here to clear up exactly what goes on in there.

Quote from hm2

Agreed. This is because cranking the "character" knob in the cab settings is just amplifying the peaks and valleys in the speaker's frequency response. This kind of hyper notchy sound is exactly what happens through phase cancellation when you mike up an amp in a tiny room like a closet. We associate this phasey sound with space, hence the illusion. But it's not actually adding space in any real sense. You can get the same effect if you tone match a guitar sound in in Logic's match EQ, pushing the slider past 100% -- all the peaks and valleys get taller/deeper. It's not "realistic" emulation of space in any literal sense, but if it takes the edge off in headphones, so be it.

For better or worse, the classic guitar recordings of last fifty years have almost all been close-miked, "one-dimensional" sounds that are a little scratchy to listen to in phones without a whole band around them.

You should experiment more with the character knob. It only creates an excessive comb filter effect if the cab has that type of tone fairly prominent to begin with (ie the profile was not close miced when created). I dial up the character when I want more resonance out of the speaker as if it was room miced when the profile was close miced, I feel it is fairly effective at achieving that. My "space" emulation has zero to do with the speaker character, but taking one of the reverbs and turning the tail to zero and cranking the mix up close to 100%/100%. The combination of both is about as close to the illusion of playing in a room as I could dial in monitoring by headphones. My goal is not to recreate "the classic guitar recordings of last fifty years", but to simply get tones pleasing to my ears.

Quote from Per

I'm not sure that's not what the character control is doing (amplifying the peaks and valleys of the frequency match), do you have any reference for that?

I do! Here's a cool little test I ran:

[Blocked Image: http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/3005/character15.gif]

Amplifying the peaks and valleys is immediately what it sounded like it was doing, and as it turns out -- that's *exactly* what it's doing. It's progressive, starting with the higher frequencies first and working its way down. It mostly leaves the mids alone until you get to 5, by which point it's more of a special effect anyway.

Cool stuff!

Quote from Will_Chen

You should experiment more with the character knob.It only creates an excessive comb filter effect if the cab has that type of tone fairly prominent to begin with (ie the profile was not close miced when created). I dial up the character when I want more resonance out of the speaker as if it was room miced when the profile was close miced, I feel it is fairly effective at achieving that. My "space" emulation has zero to do with the speaker character, but taking one of the reverbs and turning the tail to zero and cranking the mix up close to 100%/100%. The combination of both is about as close to the illusion of playing in a room as I could dial in monitoring by headphones. My goal is not to recreate "the classic guitar recordings of last fifty years", but to simply get tones pleasing to my ears.

I've experimented quite a bit with the character knob (see above). In small doses, I like it -- it's a cool effect.

Re: the "amp in room sound", I think I was quoting your instructions when I said "crank the character knob". You're in the WiKPA document, page 104. Although not attributed -- you should do something about that!

In any case the poster above was asking about the phasey sound, and it's the character knob that does that, not your reverb settings. I know you know that, I was just 'splaining him.

Cool technique, thanks for sharing!

Thanks for all the research, but it's not coming from the "character" setting. In fact if I dissable the stack section it's ( weird phasing )still there. If I dissable the reverb section it's perfect, the modulation / phasing is gone. As much as I use Wills reverse settings in a small room for headphones, we still very much need the "space in headphones" that is coming , soon I hope.

Quote from old crow

Thanks for all the research, but it's not coming from the "character" setting. In fact if I dissable the stack section it's ( weird phasing )still there. If I dissable the reverb section it's perfect, the modulation / phasing is gone. As much as I use Wills reverse settings in a small room for headphones, we still very much need the "space in headphones" that is coming , soon I hope.

Ha -- no worries. Bring on the 'space effect'!

Quote from Dlaut

At NAMM CK went out of his way to show it to me. I asked him about mentioning it here - or other places - and he said to go ahead (after initially asking me not to). From this I would deduce that it should be available in the near term.

Incidentally, he was very engaging and funny in person....although, obviously very serious about the product. He remembered me from the 2-previous NAMM shows and wanted to know my screen name (my real name was on my NAMM badge). He would be a terrific guy to have a beer with.

I believe that he is extremely proud of it (deservedly), and has an extensive list of ideas for the future under development (which he did not elaborate on).

Dlaut, have You tryied out the perform mode too???
Tell us more about it!!!!

What's the GCP like setting up? It looks like the 1010 is a nightmare.

Quote from db9091

What's the GCP like setting up? It looks like the 1010 is a nightmare.

As the KPA does not provide 2 way communication, setting up nearly any MIDI controller will be the same, assign PC and CC messages in the controller and send them to the KPA. Programming the FCB1010 is extremely easy if one gets an editor and takes the time to learn how to do it.

I bought a used 1010 that's due to arrive today. I have an UNO chip and the editor. We'll see ...

Quote from Zappledan

I bought a used 1010 that's due to arrive today. I have an UNO chip and the editor. We'll see ...

Let me know if you need help. Seriously, I can program a FCB1010 with an editor in less than 5 minutes. You simply have to understand the systems your working with.

Quote from Will_Chen

Let me know if you need help. Seriously, I can program a FCB1010 with an editor in less than 5 minutes. You simply have to understand the systems your working with.

Thanks, Will. It might turn out to be easy for me, but since I've never done this before I don't know what to expect.

Quote from Dlaut

I "looked" at the screen, and talked to CK about it. He is not in any rush to provide it until the foot controller is ready. He sees the midi ability as being sufficient at the present. Frankly, I'm in agreement on that *for my needs*.

So no hint on when the KFC might arrive then? I have to be honest I was hoping that the MIDI side might get 2-way communication sooner rather than later.

I had to have something to play live with, so picked up the 1010 used. Once the KFC is out I expect to sell the 1010 and pick up the KFC.

Will makes it sound easy.

I read a bit about it and got scared.

Will, can you set up banks with the 1010 and cycle through them? IE, 8 rigs per bank?

My main reason for not getting it was the Kemper interface was intuitive and the 1010 stuff you have to go through with getting a chip and Midi to USB etc then programming it, is the opposite of the Kemper experience it seems.

Don't get me wrong, I used to be a programmer, it's just I don't want to work at my play!

It scared me at first too. However, I hung in there and have it mostly working. My expression pedals aren't quite right, but changing rigs is working fine. You can have up to 100 rigs (10 banks x 10 pedals). However, I'm thinking I might use the bottom 5 pedals for stomps/effects, and the top 5 for rigs. Next task is to organize the rigs into useful combinations of 5, then assign the program change numbers to them accordingly (that's done on the KPA itself). The light came on for me when I realized that rigs are controlled by program change messages, and stomps/effects are controlled by change control messages. Now if I can just get the pedals working right ...