This can't be... what am I doing wrong?

@SonicExporer nothing beats a real amp.

Kemper Profiler: less control of tone shaping (unless you make your own profiles). Most realistic digital amp currently available
Other amp sims: more control of tone shaping. Not as realistic as the Kemper

@SonicExporer

I respect your opinion, and sympathize with your struggles, but hope you consider the following...

IMHO, it might be easier to understand your struggle, if your issue was related to a difficulty in adapting/adjusting to playing your KPA through a FRFR monitor. In other words, the whole "mic'd/recorded amp" -vs- "amp in the room" sound. Many people go through an adjustment period, when they switch to FRFR, compared to an amp playing directly through a traditional guitar cabinet. Of course, you can still do this with the KPA, by using Merged/Direct profiles.

However, your primary issue and complaint appears to be related to the KPA's recorded guitar tones.

This is what puzzles me, as well as many others here, IMHO.

Even the top producers and recording engineers in the industry have opined about their complete inability to distinguish and discriminate between the recorded track of a Kemper profile, compared to that of the original reference amp. Michael Wagener is just one example of such luminaries. I think most would acknowledge that Michael has "platinum" ears.

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to imply you are being unreasonable, nor am I a Kemper fanboy who thinks you "just don't get it". I really think there is either something wrong with your KPA, or less likely, user error.

While we shouldn't solely rely on a general "appeal to authority" to determine facts or discover truths...there is something to be said about weighing the opinions and testimony of not just industry experts, but also the huge population of amateur, semi-pro, and professional guitarists who have recognized the unreasonable effectiveness and uncanny fidelity of the KPA in cloning the exact tone, feel and dynamics of a given tube amp, to the point where it is indistinguishable, in a blind A/B comparison.

While the following clip is not by any means definitive, in and of itself, I think it is a representative example of how the Kemper has revolutionized the digital amp industry:

Cheers,
John

Quote from SonicExporer

Even in spite of the struggle I'm having, I don't argue the KPA clearly has a place in studios for certain kinds of work. Demos, overdubs, rushed sessions, etc. That doesn't mean I'd use on final production tracks though, and I think it would be a big mistake to assume any of these top producers and engineers you refer to would either. How do we know those people aren't being compensated in some fashion by Kemper, or quid-pro-quo for a free unit in their studio, etc? All I'm getting at is at the end of the day it doesn't matter what other people say or do or use. The only thing that matters is what my ears hear. Which is why I have now tossed out the challenge for someone to perform the test I listed a few responses ago.

Fair enough, Sonic.

Although, you have to admit...it would be a rather improbable that the inumerable awards, accolades, owner/witness testimony and multitudinous online videos of Kemper -vs- refererence tube amp blind A/B comparisons are some sort of Kemper GmbH conspiracy and quid pro quo marketing scheme. One doesn't look at any single piece of information or evidence...one looks at multiple, independent reports and testimonies, in order to have confidence in the general consensus. Nevertheless, I hear you. At the end of the day, if the Kemper isn't working for you, it isn't working for you. It is always possible that it just will not be your "cup of tea". However, I am still leaning towards the possibility that there is some so far unidentified anomaly in your Kemper unit.

I still am a bit perplexed that you continue to throw this back at the community, here, which now takes the form of a challenge (which is all well and fine)...but you refuse to contact or establish a line of communication with Kemper Support. This is just plain crazy, IMHO. No offense, mate.

Quote from SonicExporer

(And Elvis thanks for the offer, that was gracious but I'm out of your way, in FL)

Although I've never been to Florida, that would be considerably out of my way, BUT! should I find myself in that direction in the near future I'd be happy to hang out , jamm, and profile!

I'd like to reverse this testing and lay down a challenge to see if somebody would be interested in proving what I have yet to successfully hear/accomplish:

1) Mic up an amp somewhere in the hot rodded Marshall spectrum with just a simple mic (like a 57) and make a profile. (Don't rely on a prior profile of that amp, take a new one using that setup).
2) Record a track using that amp
3) Record a track using the KPA profile just made.
4) Send the pair of files back to this thread. Show me the KPA can in fact create a sound that is nearly imperceptible to the real thing. I'd LOVE to hear this so I know I'm not on a wild goose chase.
(No effects of any kind or post processing on the tracks)

Challenge accepted! On the condition that I or anyone would make about 10-20 different recordings and profiles and you have to distinguish ALL of them %100 which is which, the real deal or the KPA. What chall think? Does that seem fair? Oh, and loser buys dinner!

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I think there wont be a solution. It's possible there's something wrong with the monitoring signal chain but I'd assume the OP has tried different options there to eliminate that problem.

Just in case the three main ones are :

1) Studio Monitors - Signal chain Kemper->Convertor->Monitors
2) Headphones -> Signal chain Kemper->Heaphones (obviously you wouldn't want to use the headphone outs on your convertor when testing in case it's the convertors DAC that's at fault, so pick the headphone out on the front of the Kemper itself)
3) Cab - Signal chain Kemper->Power Amp->Cab, if the Kemper is powered you can just plug right in to a cab with a speaker cable, if not you can always shove the kemper into the loop of your guitar amp, basically using it like a pre-amp. No matter how you do this just remember to disable the cab emulation on the output.

Honestly though, the Kemper really does sound exactly like the source amp 99% of the time. Most guitarists even those that think they really know how amps sound mic'd up tend to bias themselves and imagine that they're more magical than they really are, so cognitive biases kick in.

A couple of things are not captured by the Kemper. One is room reflections. It'll get the frequency response of the room as part of the sound, but not the reverberations or any background noise. You can try to compensate for this a little either with the onboard reverb, or just by dialing up the "space" parameter in the output section. Personally I find the space thing sounds more like recording in a toilet than real room verb, but it's one area where a good Convolution Reverb in your DAW after the event with a nice room's IR can complete the sound.

Another thing it doesn't capture or rather doesn't separate is the microphone. The "Pure Cab" setting (also in the output as well as in each cabinet's settings) is an algorithm designed to reduce the effect of a mic and give you a sound more similar to direct out when using FRFR studio monitors or headphones. It's effectiveness is really governed by which mic was used on the profile, with some profiles it's amazing, with others it can introduce flub.

Then there's the fact that it doesn't capture different settings of the amp, e.g. it would be great if you could take two different profiles, set the Kemper up to know what the settings were on each and then have it extrapolate the inbetween values. Even if it were only changes in the gain dial. As it is instead it captures a single snapshot, and the further you adjust values on the front the further you get from the original amp. It still can sound good, but at the same time it doesn't quite sound or feel right.

And of course if you want perfect separation between amp and cab you will need to do a full separated profile using a DI load box.

Basically the Kemper is truly awesome, yes it actually does sound like the real amps and respond like them too, it remains after 5 years still the pinnacle of amp simulation at this time. But it comes with a bunch of caveats. It's not the end of the line for amp modeling, just another step along the way, a huge step, but still, it's not perfect. It may just not be right for you. You may need to wait till either Kemper or a competitor comes along and overcomes these hurdles.

Quote from SonicExporer

Can you imagine how long it would have taken to get to the bottom of all this work we've done by an email or two a day with support? Seriously?

Actually Kemper support is fantastic and way more knowledgeable than everyone on this forum (it is their job). Plus in my experience, they respond back very quickly.

Quote from SonicExporer

Ha! The idea isn't to guess which is real, I just want to hear with my own two ears this can actually be accomplished,. And I also am not so much concerned about the two clips sound 100% identical, but at least if there is any slight difference that it still sounds believable as coming from a real amp when played against the real amp track.

Either way, I nor anyone else should label which track is which.

Kemper sounds exactly like the amp it's miked.

I've heard enough examples online and I've done it myself. It's amazing.

It took me a good few months to really understand that it's the sound of the amp through the microphone back through the monitors. I wanted it to sound like a tube amp, in the room, and that's just not what it does. Lots of people just don't get that, I was one of them.

Lots of people (not the OP, I've no idea whether he has or hasn't) just have never recorded in a studio and heard their amp through monitors while in the control room. Last 3 studios I went to all had Kempers and were using them very regularly for all styles of music. One of the sound engineers had worked with Oasis and Iron Maiden, he knows what he's doing.

Yup. Even Michael Britt used it almost exclusively on the last Lonestar album IIRC, and he knows tone.

Sonic, I'm still waiting for a response to these posts made 2 pages ago; you've said nothing, mate.

This:

Quote from Monkey_Man

For me, the last resort has always been a firmware reset, if that's what it's called. The factory reset only reverts a bunch of parameter values to default settings.

As has been suggested, I'd install a fresh copy of the OS at the very least, and if that failed, resort to the FW reset.

... and this one, which would be my suggestion at this point:

Quote from Monkey_Man

Rather than resetting it, why not reinstall it this way?

1) Re-download the FW update in case it was somehow corrupted by or on the Kemper.
2) Place the kaos.bin file onto the USB stick, but not inside any folder.
3) Insert the stick and switch the unit on into Browse Mode whilst holding down both Page buttons.

The display will read, "Booting and Burning from USB device".

This isn't the usual way of doing the update, but "forcing" the process in this bare-bones way feels like the way to go for me - the less room for user input the better, methinks.

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Instead, you asked for ideas as to what to try next and even specified "tests or theories that do not involve touching the rig.":

Quote from SonicExporer

What can we do next to try and get to the bottom of the profiling issue? Should I turn up the volume or lower the gain on the amp and try re-profiling? Just remember, once I muck up the settings on the amp there's no going back. So if there's any tests or theories that do not involve touching the rig, let's try those first....

And again...

Quote from SonicExporer

let's see if anybody has any more suggestions in the mean time... And if all else fails then off to contact tech support....

If you reinstall the firmware the way I suggested, at least we'll know we have a solid, dependable baseline / foundation to all the other stuff we might try. It's an elephant I'd like to clear the room of. Who knows whether or not and to what extent the FW might've been corrupted through the shipping and storage processes? I've seen it happen. Only one way to nip it in the bud, mate.

...

Putting the profiling of the amp to one side for a moment, If Michael_DK has used a DI from the OP and used the same freely available profile and obtained the same sound as the OP, then there doesn't appear to be anything different between the OP's Kemper and Michael's.

Michael, do you think the sound of the DI + profile sounds bad?

If Michael thinks it sounds great, then Michael and the OP have different viewpoints on tone.

Re: Profiling - was Don earlier trying to indicate that the amp the OP was trying to profile might be the kind that is problematic?

I'm going to go back to my glass of wine and watch another old Top of The Pops from 1982, when this was probably less of an issue.

Quote from RDM

Putting the profiling of the amp to one side for a moment, If Michael_DK has used a DI from the OP and used the same freely available profile and obtained the same sound as the OP, then there doesn't appear to be anything different between the OP's Kemper and Michael's.

Agreed, RDM. I repeated my suggestion in case the part / parts of the software that implement the Profiling feature had become corrupted, in case you wondered.

Quote from RDM

Re: Profiling - was Don earlier trying to indicate that the amp the OP was trying to profile might be the kind that is problematic?

That's how I read it, mate.

The one difference between the Kemper tone and a real amp is that the Kemper is a miced amp tone, whereas a real amp is "in the room". As such, there is a difference between how it will sound compared to a real amp. You can get past this to some extent using pure cabinet.

But as far as recording, where you have to use a mic, the tones are identical. Clearly, you find the tones sub-par, but that's less a reflection on the profiles or the Profiler and more on your tonal leanings.

I don't see how another blind test will solve anything, when it's been done plenty of times. Just a few posts back, @Dean_R posted a clip of a Peavey Triple X profiled by @Deadlightstudio. If that, or the Chapman video, doesn't convince you, I don't see how something done by anyone else on this forum will.

Wish you luck in getting usable tones out of your Kemper, but if you don't want to contact support, I'd suggest you return it very quickly before you are stuck with it.

Quote from schreckmusic

Actually Kemper support is fantastic and way more knowledgeable than everyone on this forum (it is their job). Plus in my experience, they respond back very quickly.

I asked kemper support what the production date of my KPA was. They responded in FOUR minutes!

Quote from nightlight

The one difference between the Kemper tone and a real amp is that the Kemper is a miced amp tone, whereas a real amp is "in the room". As such, there is a difference between how it will sound compared to a real amp. You can get past this to some extent using pure cabinet.

But as far as recording, where you have to use a mic, the tones are identical. Clearly, you find the tones sub-par, but that's less a reflection on the profiles or the Profiler and more on your tonal leanings.

Yep. And have we asked the OP if he's ever done any recording in a studio or spent time listening to his amp miked?

Hi Sonic, did you try to profile other amps than Baron 7W amp? What was the result of profiling? Maybe the 7W amp is the problem. There were issues with profiling certain amps before. When troubleshooting such issue, I would try to profile another amp to be sure if it is not the problem in the chain.

As a side note I still don't understand not contacting the support. It would be the first thing that comes to mind. With all respect to this helpful forum, I doubt you will find better support for your issue than KPA team.