Tips for blending R121 and Sm57 for profiles ?

1st Official Post

    Hello all

    I just picked up a Royer 121 to blend with my sm57 when making some Kemper profiles. I got the Royer clip and have the phase set up perfectly.

    I moved the mics around and settled on having the 57 at the left cap edge with the Royer to the left at almost mid cone. I auditioned it through my Neumann KH 120’s and the tone sounded great. I had the 57 about 7-8db less than the 121. Very thick tone it captured from my Freidman small box 50 and V30 DR Z cabinet.


    The tone sounds great alone but when I used it live it last night i immediately got buried in my mix. Could barely hear it and I soon switched over to a different preset.


    Just looking for tips on mic placement or how to blend the faders for these two mics. Should I have the 57 higher and blend in the 121? I really don’t like the mid range sound of a 57 by itself so I naturally brought in less of the 57. I’m guessing that’s the main issue here.


    Curious to hear your thoughts.


    Thanks all

    For some cut through in a mix reverse the proportions you used. So, SM 57 louder and use the 121 to thicken up the tone - typically up to 8 dB down. Getting them in phase is a good idea.

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    I saw that video. That’s how I learned the phase trick and where to place the mics. He doesn’t really go into much detail on how he chooses to blend the two with the faders.

    Quote from Amcolan

    I saw that video. That’s how I learned the phase trick and where to place the mics. He doesn’t really go into much detail on how he chooses to blend the two with the faders.

    Oops..sorry my friend..


    I did not not watch the vid,I just remembered that it exists and posted it.


    In any case..


    It is all "down to taste" I guess. There is no general rule how to mix two mics. I am sorry. It is all about this silly "when it sounds good it is good " kind of thing. It all depends on what you want to achieve and the gear you have.

    Quote from Amcolan

    Just looking for tips on mic placement or how to blend the faders for these two mics. Should I have the 57 higher and blend in the 121? I really don’t like the mid range sound of a 57 by itself so I naturally brought in less of the 57.

    The 57 has been proven as the "standard" guitar amp for a reason - it definitely cuts through in a mix. So the general idea is to mostly create your sound with the 57 and then use the fuller, rounder 121 to fill out the sound a bit. For this, find a sound on the 121 that complements the 121, not one that stands on its own. So the best sound for the 121 will probably be a bit less "trebly" - you'll get enough of that from the 57. So as you described, mid-cone sounds reasonable - listen especially for the range that you find lacking in the 57.


    Now start your blend with the 57; then add 121 "to taste" until the brittleness is gone. But don't overdo it with the 121 - once you get too much "warmth" into your sound from the 121, it will be difficult to mix (even though it feels a lot better in isolation), because it will occupy too much sonic space when turned up high enough to be heard.


    A 121 as a main mic will work better in a very sparse arrangement, where you need the guitar to fill a lot of space. That might be an occasion (depending on style) to actually start with the 121 and blend in the 57 for "spice". But in typical band situations with instruments fighting for sonic space, you're better off starting with the 57.

    Quote from Amcolan

    He doesn’t really go into much detail on how he chooses to blend the two with the faders.

    You can see (and hear) the process of adding the 121 to the 57 in the video (starting 2:56) - they start with the 57, then add in the 121, then cross-fade to more 121 and less 57. You can hear that when the 121 fader is higher up than the 57, the resulting sound will be pretty difficult in a busy mix - it would be too muddy - even though it would probably be more fun to play in isolation...

    This is less to do with mic blends and more to do with positioning your sound in a mix.


    You have fallen into the obvious trap of a great sound on its own often does not work in a mix. And actually this is probably going to be a dilemma as the "best" sound might not be the sound you really like :)


    I think Don's idea of finding a sound that you know does work and apply that sound balance to your application sounds like the quickest, otherwise you will rely on trial and error.

    Quote from Amcolan

    I guess I could try making profiles with multiple mix options and then test them all at the gig to see which is better.

    That sounds pretty painful and cumbersome - having to replace the entire profile in your performances just to change the mic balance.


    Maybe easier to separate profiling and speaker miking: do one DI profile of your amp without speaker and create different Impulse Response mixes (with varying levels of the 121) to try with your profile. Now at soundcheck just switch IRs with the same profile until you're happy.


    You can create your own IRs of your own speaker cabinet, if getting "that" sound is important to you, but it's a bit cumbersome (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E3VSKjzdgU)


    Alternatively, you can use some ready-made IRs and blend them together, e.g. with MixIR.


    But of course, you may want to stay purely within the Kemper. In that case you could create (merged) profiles with different levels of the 121, and then create Cabinet presets from them (only the Cabinet block). You can then apply these Cabinet presets to any existing profile. So no need to change all your existing (painstakingly tweaked) profiles - simply change the Cab block. So you may have Cab block presets with the 121 at -3, -6, -8, -10, -12, ... Simply swap them out until the sound works with the band - then paste that Cab preset to all your other profiles and performances...


    Using Cab presets across all your sounds (even different amp profiles) is also a good way to avoid acoustic vertigo, giving your sounds a common flavor...

    Quote from V8guitar

    This is less to do with mic blends and more to do with positioning your sound in a mix.


    You have fallen into the obvious trap of a great sound on its own often does not work in a mix. And actually this is probably going to be a dilemma as the "best" sound might not be the sound you really like :)

    THIS ! ;) :thumbup:

    Quote from V8guitar

    This is less to do with mic blends and more to do with positioning your sound in a mix.


    You have fallen into the obvious trap of a great sound on its own often does not work in a mix. And actually this is probably going to be a dilemma as the "best" sound might not be the sound you really like :)


    I think Don's idea of finding a sound that you know does work and apply that sound balance to your application sounds like the quickest, otherwise you will rely on trial and error.

    Just to add, I had a really nice compliment last weekend on my sound but actually in isolation I'm not a big fan of it - I dare not change it because it seems to work!

    Quote from V8guitar

    You have fallen into the obvious trap of a great sound on its own often does not work in a mix. And actually this is probably going to be a dilemma as the "best" sound might not be the sound you really like

    Agree 100%.


    The question is how to get to a sound that works well for you in a mix.


    Easiest way might actually be to use one of your preferred sounds and then EQ the heck out of it (using an EQ within the Kemper) in rehearsal / soundcheck setting until it works with the mix. Then save that profile with the EQ somewhere on your Kemper and revisit it at home / in your studio. That will help you develop an ear for "live-compatible" sounds, so you can customize your profiling towards that acoustic target...

    I think I will have better luck after I switch to liquid profiling and I can start tweaking the Eq and tone stack live during sound check. If it’s Lacking a little mids i can more accurately dial some back in

    I share opinions above but, IMO, you shouldn't have to EQ your rigs on the profiler.

    You can work on cutting the mix on your side but a band is a set, every instrument have to find a place, and all those frequencies separation have to be made on the mix table....

    For me, it's the soundguy's job.

    In my band this is a problem.... i've asked to work on it and we have only done once (EQ settings)... We arrive on gigs and push the track's volume...No comment. X/ :rolleyes: ;(

    The thing that can be done is disabling delays/reverb that can be pleasant alone but too much wet in a gig context, the sound guy can add it on the mix table to correspond to each musician and the place where you are.....

    Isn't the answer a bit of both ?


    We all know that fat fuzzy sounds are likely to interfere with other sounds more than cleaner, punchier sounds ( massive generalization). This is why often sounds we like on their own don't work - we all love these huge sound scape filling sounds, but put into a band...gone. I was asked on stage by a friend to play a song on his new Line 6 rig ( this is 20 years ago btw). He raved about the sound and I played it on its own and it sounded great. Then the band started up and it just disappeared. It was crazy!


    So eq-ing will help but maybe not the total solution, even at a profile level, as gain impacts this as well. Less gain will help cutting through. we all hate reducing gain but it works for Angus :)


    My suggestion is this starts at rehearsal - you should know there if you are cutting through or not there. I would not rely purely on the sound engineer at a gig, it starts with the "right" sound.


    Then the fine tuning can be done by the sound engineer at gig time...same principle as computers...garbage in, garbage out, they can't polish a turd..