Is this accurate? KPA cant separate amp from cab?

That's just a user opinion, IMO wrong. Here we are all happy about it and the Kemper cabs seems to the majority of us vastly superior to IR's. The best you can do is to try it for yourself, you will not be disappointed.

The final truth, as I understand it, is that a complete separation between amp and cab is an illusion anyway. An amp will have a 'certain' sound only in conjunction with a 'certain' cab.
Change the cab, and you will also change the sound of you amp.

IMO only the KPA is able to capture this interaction between amp and cab accurately.

When we change the cab in the KPA and replace it with another, at he same time we apply a little of the amp DNA that cab was captured with.
But this is a small price that we pay.
We get maximum authenticity when we use the cab the amp was captured with.
We get interesting hybrids when we apply different cabs to different amps.
In the end it's all about the sound and livelyness of it all.
And it's very obvious to me that the KPA delivers here, more than the competitors (and I've had them all).

another point worth mentioning is that because of the way a profile is created, every cabinet portion is unique.
to my ears that makes a huge difference to dialling up a factory content or even 3rd party IR, 'cause you'll always have favs and tend to use these (too) often.

Here is all you need to know. Is it possible to disable the cab from a profile and run into a traditional cabinet and get good results? The answer is an absolute yes. Is it the best unit when used this way? That is subjective and really up to each user. I will say though that the guy who said that also viewed the KPA interface as chaotic which perhaps points to a bias against the unit. I've owned almost everything on the market with the exception of the 11r and Axe and the UI is the least complex and most intuitive I've experienced. Calling it chaotic makes zero sense to me.

To the OP: I don' think I can be said biased towards the KPA, even tho I believe it's one of the most innovative devices of the last years.
Having said this, I believe that the question is legit, but basically useless. Much more useful is, IMO, the question whether or not you can get great musical results while using the cab function. Personally, I can't see how a "physically accurate" cab swap would help the musician aquiring better results, since - and this is the critical point - a profile is not a model, so every amp is never considered apart from the chain it was a part of.

Like others wrote, try one for yourself, it is the only way to discover whether or not it sounds good to you

Thank you guys, you have absolutely hit the point!

From my understanding there is no perfect separation of amp and cab possible in digital amps, that matches this aspect in every situation possible.
This is because tube power amps provide a low damping of the speaker - which is highly desired. But due to that reason the power amp cannot be seen or measured independently from a cab.

It was proposed to measure the tube power amps output while using a real cabinet as the power soak (e.g. Red Box). This is the closed way to do separate "component modeling".
This result can actually be profiled, or modeled.
Still the impedance curve is imprinted in the frequency responce of the power amp, which is not a full separation.
Running the same real cab by this model, driven by a solid state amp should give perfect results.
But changing the cab afterwards will not be an authentic swap, as the impedance curve of the new cab will not be taken into account.
Similar problems happen when virtual cabs are swapped.

I haven't seen the experts and smart *** people on TGP pointing out this problem yet.

Our approach to this CabDriver.
It reads parts of the impedance curve of the virtual cabinet and applies it to the amp sound.
There is more approaches possible, but this is the one that creates the best sounding results among different profiles.

To renew the answer to this everlasting question:
Yes, we do separate the cab from the amp, and we do it our way.

Thanks Eng. Kemper for chiming in!
At this point I'd like to have a further clarificTin if you don't mindwith respect to *modeling* physical components.

A real poweramp is something that exists even w\o a cab, and the same is true for the cab. What's the difficulty in modeling an amp which, when "connected" to a modeled cab, reacts properly from an impedance POW? If the two items are properly modeled, they should behave "naturally" even in different combinations.
What am I missing here?

Thanks for your time

Quote from VictorRattlehead

There is a new post going on at the TGP about KPA and the FXII and a user posted the below comment? I was wondering if its true what he said? I thought you can separate the amp from the cab and replace it. Am I wrong?

When you get your KPA press the "Cabinet" button to OFF and see what it sounds like...you'll quickly answer your own question.
Then, press the Cabinet button ON again and scroll through the thousands of Cabinets, you'll be laughing at the comments you read on TGP.

Quote from viabcroce

Thanks Eng. Kemper for chiming in!
At this point I'd like to have a further clarificTin if you don't mindwith respect to *modeling* physical components.

A real poweramp is something that exists even w\o a cab, and the same is true for the cab. What's the difficulty in modeling an amp which, when "connected" to a modeled cab, reacts properly from an impedance POW? If the two items are properly modeled, they should behave "naturally" even in different combinations.
What am I missing here?

Thanks for your time

It is indeed possible to model amps and cabs so they react correcty to their digital counterpart.
But there will be no reaction between the virtual tube power amp and a real cab. Same for a IR cab, that is loaded from somewhere.
This is when I said "in every situation"

Quote from ckemper

But changing the cab afterwards will not be an authentic swap, as the impedance curve of the new cab will not be taken into account.

Apparently the AxeFX II allows the user to input a custom impedance curve, but the ability to accurately measure and input the right curve is beyond the capability of most users.

Quote from burningyen

Apparently the AxeFX II allows the user to input a custom impedance curve, but the ability to accurately measure and input the right curve is beyond the capability of most users.

Yeah, and RedWirez also provides impedance curves for many cabinets allowing the user to mix it with a cab to simulate loading the cab down or to use it and then out to a real cab. But it really doesn't matter, arguing theoretically whether or not the Kemper can "accurately" remove cabs is a waste of time. Either one will get good results or they won't regardless of what elements have been modeled or not modeled. I get good results running into a traditional cab and many others do as well.

Quote from ckemper

It is indeed possible to model amps and cabs so they react correcty to their digital counterpart.
But there will be no reaction between the virtual tube power amp and a real cab. Same for a IR cab, that is loaded from somewhere.
This is when I said "in every situation"

Thank you. So, if I get it right, it's impossible to model *a priori* the way an amp reacts to any possible impedance curve. Is this the point?

CK nailed my educational guess, namely, an AMP reacts to a CAB and so it's sound will be affected by that speaker load (and wire quality and length and guitar wire and pickups, etc, etc) and the sound will be different than when the AMP is separated.

What is the real difference in SOUND as Guitartone aptly points out? After all, we aren't talking about whether an AMP and CAB can match a theoretical ideal we can Never truly hear or replicate. We are talking about whether an AMP can sound so much like a Real Tube Amp that you can't tell the difference between the digital device and the analog one. More to the point, can it sound like the one YOU have?

Some say "that is subjective and can't be measured and so MY opinion is device-X sucks and device-Y is the bomb!"

But I think you CAN do a scientific study on polling those subjective opinions and how they are phrased:

Count how many times you hear a statement of comparison in the form of:
"With this new firmware version n.0, the AXE finally >= than the KPA in Amp Tones!"

By my count, every new firmware since the KPA came out has been predicated and followed with such a statement of comparison. And on this TGP thread in question, one forum member said that v9.0 is "finally equal to the KPA in amp tones". Yet a few threads over, someone, who is testing v10 beta, says that v10 will blow away v9 in the amp tone department. Hmmmm. Subjective. But still the SAME STYLE of statement will be made when v10 is out. Just replace "n" with "10" in that statement. Being the AXE is compared to the KPA in terms of tone realism. The thing it shoots to be "as good" or "greater than".

Now, how many times does someone say:
"with OS n.0, the KPA is finally equal to the AXE in terms of amp tone"

I've never seen it once. Not on this forum.

So it's clear who the Industry Standard is for Amp Tone: The hardware unit that others compare themselves to (real amp tones): The KPA.

And what does the KPA compare itself to? Only the analog tube amps it profiles.

(you can see the reverse comparison for Effect Variety and Routing and and Editor Librarian and Foot Controller for KPA being compared to the AXE. All very pertinent comparisons.)

So does it matter how many infinite AMP->CAB combinations you can get? Yes it does in terms of creativity and coming up with NEW tones. That's a cool feature. And the AXE can do double amps and multiple cabinets. OK, both units have flexibility for creativity.

The elephant in the room isn't the separation of the CAB or the entire CAB discussion anyway. It's whether the initial AMP/CAB tone is realistic to the tube amp you are trying to mimic or replace.

In that test, I don't compare the KPA with the Fractal unit I own, or the next one I might own. I compare it to my Tube Amps I wanted to profile. The same ones I sold AFTER profiling. The same ones I don't miss now because I can simply turn on my Kemper and record my old analog tube amps with my new digital device.

This is not a theoretical separation. This is REAL. The separation of Me, Guitar Player, from my Tube Amp and whether I feel the same playing the KPA as I did playing my Swart. I do.

Bye Bye Tube Amps and Hello Kemper!

Quote from db9091

This is not a theoretical separation. This is REAL. The separation of Me, Guitar Player, from my Tube Amp and whether I feel the same playing the KPA as I did playing my Swart. I do.

Well said!

Question. What do you prefere:
A) something which always sounds "fake" and perfectly divides amp and cab keeping its original fakeness no matter how you set it;
B) something which sounds superb and accurate at 95% (at least) but it doesn't divide perfectly amp and cab, thus it still sounds great thru other cabs (real or emulations it doesn't matter)

Well, if you chose A you can use any modeler on the market, you can get this exact thing with anything from cheap Korg to FAS units. The only difference is on how fake (or unreal or inaccurate, you chose the word) do they sound.
If you want B, you have a single option. Well, now two since there's the rack version too

Quote from Jimmyno

Question. What do you prefere:
A) something which always sounds "fake" and perfectly divides amp and cab keeping its original fakeness no matter how you set it;
B) something which sounds superb and accurate at 95% (at least) but it doesn't divide perfectly amp and cab, thus it still sounds great thru other cabs (real or emulations it doesn't matter)

Well, if you chose A you can use any modeler on the market, you can get this exact thing with anything from cheap Korg to FAS units. The only difference is on how fake (or unreal or inaccurate, you chose the word) do they sound.
If you want B, you have a single option. Well, now two since there's the rack version too

Great discussion here, and perfect recap from Jimmy !
I will chose option B all my life

Quote from db9091

CK nailed my educational guess, namely, an AMP reacts to a CAB and so it's sound will be affected by that speaker load (and wire quality and length and guitar wire and pickups, etc, etc) and the sound will be different than when the AMP is separated.

What is the real difference in SOUND as Guitartone aptly points out? After all, we aren't talking about whether an AMP and CAB can match a theoretical ideal we can Never truly hear or replicate. We are talking about whether an AMP can sound so much like a Real Tube Amp that you can't tell the difference between the digital device and the analog one. More to the point, can it sound like the one YOU have?

Some say "that is subjective and can't be measured and so MY opinion is device-X sucks and device-Y is the bomb!"

But I think you CAN do a scientific study on polling those subjective opinions and how they are phrased:

Count how many times you hear a statement of comparison in the form of:
"With this new firmware version n.0, the AXE finally >= than the KPA in Amp Tones!"

By my count, every new firmware since the KPA came out has been predicated and followed with such a statement of comparison. And on this TGP thread in question, one forum member said that v9.0 is "finally equal to the KPA in amp tones". Yet a few threads over, someone, who is testing v10 beta, says that v10 will blow away v9 in the amp tone department. Hmmmm. Subjective. But still the SAME STYLE of statement will be made when v10 is out. Just replace "n" with "10" in that statement. Being the AXE is compared to the KPA in terms of tone realism. The thing it shoots to be "as good" or "greater than".

Now, how many times does someone say:
"with OS n.0, the KPA is finally equal to the AXE in terms of amp tone"

I've never seen it once. Not on this forum.

So it's clear who the Industry Standard is for Amp Tone: The hardware unit that others compare themselves to (real amp tones): The KPA.

And what does the KPA compare itself to? Only the analog tube amps it profiles.

(you can see the reverse comparison for Effect Variety and Routing and and Editor Librarian and Foot Controller for KPA being compared to the AXE. All very pertinent comparisons.)

So does it matter how many infinite AMP->CAB combinations you can get? Yes it does in terms of creativity and coming up with NEW tones. That's a cool feature. And the AXE can do double amps and multiple cabinets. OK, both units have flexibility for creativity.

The elephant in the room isn't the separation of the CAB or the entire CAB discussion anyway. It's whether the initial AMP/CAB tone is realistic to the tube amp you are trying to mimic or replace.

In that test, I don't compare the KPA with the Fractal unit I own, or the next one I might own. I compare it to my Tube Amps I wanted to profile. The same ones I sold AFTER profiling. The same ones I don't miss now because I can simply turn on my Kemper and record my old analog tube amps with my new digital device.

This is not a theoretical separation. This is REAL. The separation of Me, Guitar Player, from my Tube Amp and whether I feel the same playing the KPA as I did playing my Swart. I do.

Bye Bye Tube Amps and Hello Kemper!

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Hello db9091 !

It's all yes.

Yes, the amp and cab can not be fully separated (in the way a real tube amp and cab can be swapped)

Yes, we get the illusuion to be able to swap cab's or to turn cab's off

Yes, the KPA sounds so much better than anything else digital because of this integrated profiling(amp and cab at the same time)

Yes, we can combine cab's from other profiled amps - or even from converted IR's - with any amp profile, and while not 100% accurate - it may sound great - this is about taste not accuracy for me.

Yes, the KPA cab part can be switched off - and then can the amp part feed a traditional power amp / guitar cab. And it may sound great - if not then there is the option to compensate the sound with an EQ block.

Yes, there is currently no other unit that can do what the KPA can do

Yes, IMHO will there never be a (one step profiling) unit that can do perfect amp / cab separation - because of the laws of physics.

Yes, the KPA works this fantastic that I started selling some of my tube amps - after profiling them - never thought I would.

...another tube amps seller....