Liquid Profiles

    I only watched the TJ/CK clip once, but I thought the new Tone and Gain control only needs to be applied to a single profile, i.e. not interpolating between a number of profiles, which I believe a few people have suggested. This will be done either:

    (1) By taking an existing profile and letting the new Tone/Gain control know what the settings of the amp were for the profile (no details were given as to how yet), so that the controls accurately change the amp sound from the baseline position; or

    (2) Can be baked in when making new profiles.


    I could be wrong though of course, but if I've understood correctly I'm looking forward to having a single profile which captures a baseline of the amp and then having the Tone and Gain Control to make changes as you would with a standard amp. This should also cut out the issue* where someone profiles sweet spots on an amp by dialling in tones with a Strat in pick up position 1, but you the buyer are going to use an archtop style guitar to play the profiles. It shouldn't matter anymore with Liquid Profiling, whether the baseline profile was set to tame an ice pick sounding Strat, as you can tweak the Gain and Tone to suit the guitar you are using just like you would with a standard amp.


    *I don't think this issue has been discussed much over the years and whilst I believe it was @waraba(?) who produced SC and HB specific packs, a lot of profiles state suitable for both SC and HB. However, I always think, "well surely the amp setting suits the guitar type you used to find the sweet spot when profiling, so they're not always going to be multi-purpose". I'd be interested to know if I'm wrong about this being an issue, albeit one that I think is resolved by the new Tone and Gain control functionality.


    Thanks Kemper and whilst lbieber would prefer we wait until we've tasted the pudding Kemper has cooked for us, I can't help but smell it and feel a little excited.

    Covers mainly using the Kemper and er, other people's songs:


    https://www.youtube.com/user/BitterScene1

    Edited 3 times, last by RDM: Grammar - changed 'we' to 'we've' in the last sentence. Also added a missing 'on' in the second paragraph. Changed 'set for' to 'set to tame' in the second paragraph. ().

    Like 7

    Wow -- lot's of interesting opinions on Kemper's news.


    For me, the Kemper's value proposition (for me) is being able to have and control multiple amps and effects from one box, with one relatively modest pedalboard. I don't record (other than band demos for gigs), so everything else the Kemper can do is amazing but is in the basket of "I don't need that." This is a device that replaces the multiple amps I used to have to lug to gigs, have switchers for, and a huge pedalboard to go with it.


    If liquid profiling actually means, as some as said, that I can use one '69 Plexi profile and reach over and tweak the knobs and get essentially the same result I'd get from the "real" amp, then this would be a HUGE game changer. As other have said, no more having to have 10 profiles of the same '69 Plexi to get different basic tones.


    I've thought for some time that the Kemper user universe could be somewhat divided by those who use the Kemper as a recording device (which I sort of feel like was its design purpose) and those who use it as a live performance instrument designed to replace a backline of multiple amps. The current Kemper can be tweaked in a million ways ... but those tweaks we now use to improve or change a profile are many menu's deep, not really intuitive (without dozens if not hundreds of hours of tweaking and testing - I know others will disagree with that observation), and are not tweaks one makes from the stage.


    It would be tremendous if the liquid profiles results in a more intuitive, "amp like" interface and response, which I realize appeals more to live performance users perhaps than recording gurus. I've thought that if there were ever a "new" Kemper it would be great to have one for tailored to the live use audience.

    Quote from MattUlbricht

    Fortunately, that last statement is untrue. CK states exactly that the gain knob will behave like a real gain knob. (see HW's Video on YouTube, min. 7:15) But then again, what else should he say, seen from a marketing point of view...

    I went back and relistened. You are fully correct. CK claimed exactly what you stated. Thanks for pointing me to it. As I stated previously, I am happy to be wrong about my statements regarding this. This will have a significant impact on profiles and profilers. What this means is that anyone who profiles an amp cannot implement a fully accurate liquid profile without having the correct tonestack(if that is the right word). The end user can make a profile, but not a tonestack? This will create an interesting situation. I'm interested to see how the tonestack request section of the forum evolves.

    What even is a gain knob when it comes to early amps? Is it the Volume knob? Will a Liquid Profile of a vintage five-watt Vibro Champ get those sweet cleans on 3 and when its Volume (Gain?) knob is turned up, get the sweet amp compression and grit like the real thing?


    Anyway, I’m not obsessive about “authenticity“ for authenticity’s sake. But some very early iterations of tube amplifiers achieve certain characteristics that have never been musically improved upon.


    Personally, I don’t think that using two profiles in order to get both of those qualities is such a big deal. But of course I’m curious and will probably find some kind of inspiration in this new technology, seeing as CK and his team believe in it enough to invest their energy into developing it.


    Also, Kemper has been modeling effects since day one, so they obviously have skills. It’ll be interesting to see if profiles that they release Liquify-ready can best just using two traditional profiles made at different gain settings.


    If it can, even if it’s “close enough”, then we’re talking about a brand new lease on life for the morph pedal.

    The liquid profile will have limitations it seems. Will it be better? I hope so.


    What is a gain knob? Good question! Most likely it is labeled Volume on most amps.


    What about amps with 2 Vol knobs? And jumpered 2 channel amps? What about Dumbles, Boogies and other amps with series gain stages? Quite a few amps have multiple tonestacks. These are real circuit topologies that could be modeled. Will liquid profiles handle them? Interested to know.

    Quote from alerich
    1. Profile through RM. Handy but I don't make profiles often. I don't need this.
    2. Profile Marketplace in RM. I don't need this.
    3. Android Support. Even though I am an Android guy and this has been a long time coming and will be useful to many I don't need this.
    4. USB Audio. Another feature long overdue that will help many but I don't need this.
    5. Liquid Profiling (accurate tone stack with EQ and gain staging). On the surface this sounds like more of that "amp in the room" voodoo to me. The Kemper in its current form meets or exceeds all of my needs as a guitarist. The last big game changer was the Kemper Kone, Kemper Kabinet(s) and speaker imprints. A wonderful feature that... (wait for it) I had no use for.

    I talked about the "liquid profiling".


    If it works we will need it. It will definitely be a game changer. You'll see.

    It feels to me like there will clearly still be a calling for both the classic profile and the new liquid version. As has been stated throughout this thread there will be many obscure amps (and perhaps certain individual amp channel tone routings on more popular amps) that are sure to not appear at first in the official tone stack library. I watched HW’s face as he was considering what CK was explaining, and I feel that same sense of nerdy, geeky wonder and the excitement of getting to try it all out down the road. Excited to see what vendors (and Kemper themselves!) do with this new option.


    My KPA has been primarily a live use machine and I’m VERY interested in this development. I just love the ingenuity and unique train of thought that has given us all this most incredible device.

    Quote from Robrecht

    On the other hand, the introduction of Liquid Profiling sounds like it could undermine one of the selling points for commercial profilers: that they typically provide a whole profile collection of every possible combination of EQ and gain settings for a specific amp, rather than the disparate one-offs found for free in the Rig Exchange. If Liquid Profiling works as described, as long as you know the knob settings of the original amp, one profile would be enough to cover every corner and every sweet spot. And that, in turn, could make those free one-off profiles much more valuable than they are now.

    I thinks it's yes and no. I think one profile will now be more than a single snapshot, requiring a fewer number of profiles to represent it. But the usefulness of multiple profiles at different gain stages remains. By clicking on four or five profiles of an amp in a pack that have certain things constant, a bright switch on and a particular speaker cabinet for example, I can hear at least the profile maker's idealized sound at each of those gain stages without turning several knobs. Now it might be that once I find one profile that I want to work with, then other profiles in that pack prove superfluous after I make adjustments to the modeled tone stack, but the convenience before I get their remains. The reason to buy profile from pro's like TJ is they own tons of gear, mics, cabs, and have spent thousands of hours experimenting with mics and making profiles; any I make on the extremely limited number of amps I could get my hands on would be inferior.


    Rather, I think a paradigm change in younger guitarists will render this new feature less helpful. Going back to square 1, the reason guitarist stuck with tube amps despite the convenience of digital is because until the KPA came out, digital always was somewhat harsh and 1 dimensional. We didn't stick with tube amps because their tone stacks were so amazing. Often, amps were one-trick ponies in which the tone stack only had a couple sweet spots. After playing kPA for a decade and not having owned a real amp for over five years now, I have developed a new technique for getting good tone: trying out many profile packs of many amps and finding amp types I like for specific guitars and styles, specific profile packs I like, and then specific profiles in those specific packs that do that thing best. From there, I use the powerful tweaks already available in the KPA to make them better. If I found myself wanting to make substantial changes to the EQ (using the current EQ options or the forthcoming liquids) I probably wouldn't have "liked" that amp or profile to begin with. And why should I, when I have 10,000+ commercial profiles?

    Quote from alerich
    1. Profile through RM. Handy but I don't make profiles often. I don't need this.
    2. Profile Marketplace in RM. I don't need this.
    3. Android Support. Even though I am an Android guy and this has been a long time coming and will be useful to many I don't need this.
    4. USB Audio. Another feature long overdue that will help many but I don't need this.
    5. Liquid Profiling (accurate tone stack with EQ and gain staging). On the surface this sounds like more of that "amp in the room" voodoo to me. The Kemper in its current form meets or exceeds all of my needs as a guitarist. The last big game changer was the Kemper Kone, Kemper Kabinet(s) and speaker imprints. A wonderful feature that... (wait for it) I had no use for.

    yeah congratulations, you should go in history for not -needing kemper updates-

    They don't know how liquid profile works and yet they know how it's gonna work. Amazing

    Quote from Robrecht

    On the other hand, the introduction of Liquid Profiling sounds like it could undermine one of the selling points for commercial profilers: that they typically provide a whole profile collection of every possible combination of EQ and gain settings for a specific amp, rather than the disparate one-offs found for free in the Rig Exchange. If Liquid Profiling works as described, as long as you know the knob settings of the original amp, one profile would be enough to cover every corner and every sweet spot. And that, in turn, could make those free one-off profiles much more valuable than they are now.

    yeah, and?...
    So what lol be it. Por que no los dos

    It’ll definitely be interesting to see how the gain knob behaves with this. If it actually will be like a traditional amp gain. All this speculation is exciting.

    A brace of Suhrs, a Charvel, a toaster, an Apollo twin, a Mac, and a DXR10

    Like 2
    Quote from HIWATTHEAD

    yeah, and?...
    So what lol be it. Por que no los dos

    Oh of course, I meant it as a good thing! The profile sellers will survive, they still have their unique amp and mic collections and good ears. I just think it's really cool that the user value of a single profile as a representation of a certain analog amp will increase by so much. The whole system with having to do dozens of separate profiles to cover all knob settings was always a bit cumbersome.


    (All of this is ignoring the fact that right now, without Liquid Profiling, the Kemper's gain and EQ knobs already work very well in many circumstances! You can get a great variety of sounds from a single profile, even if it moves away from the original amp.)

    Quote from RDM

    This should also cut out the issue* where someone profiles sweet spots on an amp by dialling in tones with a Strat in pick up position 1, but you the buyer are going to use an archtop style guitar to play the profiles. It shouldn't matter anymore with Liquid Profiling, whether the baseline profile was set to tame an ice pick sounding Strat, as you can tweak the Gain and Tone to suit the guitar you are using just like you would with a standard amp.

    This is a very good point I think. In general, it seems Liquid Profiling (like merged profiles before it) will make the decisions involved in profiling a little less defining and make profiles less snapshot-like. Cab choice, mic choice and placement, and now knob settings and the guitar used for tweaking them will no longer restrict what you retain from the original amp.

    As a Computer Scientist and Software Engineer, I'm impressed.


    I bought my Kemper in 2013, because even back then I could see that Kemper was committed to Long-Term-Support. This is more evidence that I made the right choice — although I didn't need new evidence anymore.


    So my Kemper v1 is going to become Kemper v2. Nice.


    I hear those of you stating that we need to have the models available first, before we can judge and celebrate. I get it. Nonetheless, that some level of modeling can be achieved and added to the best profiler invented more than a decade ago is impressive.


    I'm also looking forward to the USB interface thing ... it will simplify some things for me :)


    CK, I would like to buy you a few rounds of beer once I visit your city, to chat about "things and engineering."