You could easily A/B the real amp vs. the Kemper during the profiling session - did you do this?
In case yes - do you have any soundclips to let us hear the differences?
Not so easy if it's all in the same room though....!
You could easily A/B the real amp vs. the Kemper during the profiling session - did you do this?
In case yes - do you have any soundclips to let us hear the differences?
Not so easy if it's all in the same room though....!
Also depends on how he was profiling; as far as I could see from quickly browsing the manual, the e430 has various outputs, some intended for feeding a console (with cab sim), some for feeding a power amp, and a powered output for guitar cabs and headphones (!). To be honest though, I've found the Profilers strength to be in profiling the entire typical recording signal chain, rather than the output of a preamp (though I haven't yet tried making Direct profiles with FW 3.x).
Hello Cederik,
how were you comparing the amp and the profile when... profiling?
A mic'ed sound can't... sound like the amp in the room unless you use specific attentions (a test mic, killing early reverberations etc.).
The comparison should be made between the profile heard through monitors and the amp (mic'ed in the exact same way) heard through the same monitors from a different room.
And how did you record the Profiler and the amp in the clip? Was the mic left in the same exact position as when profiling?
As these guys point out -- the profile tone will have the character (freq curve) of the mic(s) you use added to it (unless perhaps direct profiling - which I haven't dabbled with yet as I'm still doing regular profiles!)
And that will be more than enough to make audible differences between a profile played back to the amp solely through a cabinet... The profiling process captures a fingerprint of the entire signal chain (which includes mics + positioning + cables even!) .... If you stuck your head next to the edge of the cone (and only heard that (physically impossible) then that is what the mic is 'hearing' and then adding it's own character to.... You hear the amp + cab as A WHOLE IN A ROOM... Unless you are comparing through a DAW (in a separate room: mic'd cab vs Kemper profile through the same monitors)
I too, hope this is what direct profiling aims to combat - though as I say in haven't tried that yet...
I DID take direct profile without speaker sim... And yes I did compare the preamp signal a lot before trying the cabsim.
And no matter what I did it didn't sound exactly the same.
I can hear the difference quite clearly, and is easily visible with a frequency analyser - which is in my experience not normal.
properly made profiles are practically indistinguishable, especially if someone else does the A/B switching (so your knowledge of what is what doesn't play tricks on you).
Often, people don't even realize that the sound was switched if they don't see it.
The Profiler nailed the peak at 110Hz perfectly, but there are differences in the mids and the high end - since there are (and have been for years now) so many great examples of how well profiling works,
some even made by some of the best ears in the business like Michael Wagener, I think it's most likely that the differences are due to:
- not reamping the comparison
- some ideosyncrasy of the preamp (like a hard-wired noise gate that can't be shut off - we had a case like that with another preamp)
I'd advise further testing, but since you don't have the Profiler anymore...
Display MoreHi Cederick
I get where you are coming from and I too am very critical with my A/B'ing, but I offer you the following:-
- both A and B sound great
- they are very close
- A has more zing / sizzle
Whichever is which, give me 15 seconds with either and I can make them indistinguishable from each other - just tweak the Definition and Clarity of either and any difference will be so small as to be indistinguishable
Please don't misunderstand me when I say this as I mean nothing negative by it ........ the Kemper [ or the Axe FX ] will get you %95 there no worries ..... the marginal %5 you hear missing is more than made up for by everything else both units can do.
However, if %95 isn't good enough for you - and that's fine if that's the case - then best to probably not go with the Kemper or the Axe FX.
Either way, all the best .
Ben
Yep it's totally good enough for me. I was just expecting 100% similarity...
A sample has sensibly more definition and clarity while the B one is somewhat darker.
I like more the A sample and guess this is the real amp...but hope I'm wrong
EDIT: well....there ain't such a big difference though, while listening to them some more times. more definition is the right word to me
Ok time for reveal (wasn't many guesses anyway):
You are correct
Anyway... I'm buying myself a Kemper
I'm not going to profile anything myself anyway, so I'll probably be very happy with stuff I can buy or download.
Rest assured, when done correctly, profiling can get you to at least 98% of the way there, with just a single round of profiling and refining. Whether that profile is actually any good though depends on the micing technique, which separates the boys from the men, also in the record engineering world. It is possible to get even closer, though it's also possible to not get anywhere near, depending on the amp in question (although if it's all-tube and noisegateless, there shouldn't be a problem).
Yep it's totally good enough for me. I was just expecting 100% similarity...
for that to work you would need to have the exact same input both times, that's why I suggested reamping.
A sample has sensibly more definition and clarity while the B one is somewhat darker.
I like more the A sample and guess this is the real amp...but hope I'm wrong
EDIT: well....there ain't such a big difference though, while listening to them some more times. more definition is the right word to me
you bring up a very good point, in fact it does sound like the Definition parameter was turned down after profiling, which is odd.
the Profiler has no issues with reproducing high frequencies, this behaviour is by no means symptomatic.
for that to work you would need to have the exact same input both times, that's why I suggested reamping.
But the similarity was there every time I profiled and played. I know how to play "the same" but the feeling and sound of the reference and Kemper profile was different every time. So reamping wouldn't have helped in this case at all.
But the similarity was there every time I profiled and played. I know how to play "the same" but the feeling and sound of the reference and Kemper profile was different every time. So reamping wouldn't have helped in this case at all.
Maybe not, but it would have made comparing the two a lot easier. EG. using a frequency analyser
Based on the clips, I'd have to say the profile wasn't accurately captured. Much darker and more "woolly" than the original clip. I'd try doing it again with different mic placement or a different mic altogether and see if you can't capture a more open sound.
I wrote the wrong word above... Hahahaha.
My intention was to say "the difference was there", NOT "the similarity". English aint my first language so please excuse
Based on the clips, I'd have to say the profile wasn't accurately captured. Much darker and more "woolly" than the original clip. I'd try doing it again with different mic placement or a different mic altogether and see if you can't capture a more open sound.
There's no mics involved.
The Engl e430 is a preamp that's lined without anything between.
Anyway, this thread isn't really of importance anymore, since I will go and buy the Kemper tomorrow
good boy!
Happy end thx God
Display MoreI wrote the wrong word above... Hahahaha.
My intention was to say "the difference was there", NOT "the similarity". English aint my first language so please excuse
There's no mics involved.
The Engl e430 is a preamp that's lined without anything between.
Ah, a DI profile, I missed that. In that respect, there's been quite a lot of discussion on the forums about how DI profiles into a cabinet sound a bit different from the actual amp into the same cabinet.
Yeah I have read that too at some places.
I had grand plans of profiling my gear, but my bought profiles are superior to anything i can put out
Recording an amp is experimental... this should be the same as profiling considering your effectively doing the same thing. - dont worry if at first it failed. - I still fail now, and Ive been doing it since day 1. - just as long as you can learn from it. Amps, mcis, Preamps etc etc are all fikkle gear. - some days they just want to be your friend.. other days your worst nightmare. - try again when you have it, in a relaxed state, dont rush it make sure everything is good, make sure that you read all the relevant documentation on profiling, gain staging and setup, then start again with the new approach. - and what works on one amp may NOT work on another.. you always need to think ahead, learn and be patient.. if at first you fail.. then try try again!
The profiles are a result of what you put in to them..
Gratz on your Kemper Purchace, now enjoy that beast!
Cederick, glad you're joining the fun here. Welcome to the forum!
Display MoreI understand I'm not an expert on this field, but I'm still very sure I did things by the book (I mean... I DID follow the included instructions)
I monitor in both headphones and monitor speakers, and I hear the difference in both.
And I hear the same difference on my internet laptop on Soundcloud listening to other peoples profiles, with cheap AKG headphones.
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Here's two files one with real e430 and one with the Kemper profile. First you will notice there's a big difference, then it would be fun if somebody could hear which is the Kemper and not
A has more gain, B doesn't , this A i assume is the real? Increase gain on the second and they are going to be close.