Kemper 2 expectations

    @nightlight It really pains me more to not be able to record this to show you guys , more so than you guys putting up with my rants about how killer it is. I tried to buy the dam RME baby face yesterday turns out the the SP/DIF connections on the Babyface Pro are run through the ADAT lightpipe connector, whereas the Kemper has SP/DIF on coaxial connections, so the two are not compatible in that regard. The AD converters on the Babyface are unbelievable quality and it would be a shame not to use them for the Kemper.I am told the best way to run the two together would be high quality balance audio cables, as short as possible. Bah in dont know what to buy. Ah F it, one day i will drive to Monkey's @Monkey_Man to do this, if i flew to AJ"s we would just drink all night and only record one song (not that i would be complaining)


    At first running 2 kempers with 2 stereo FRFR cabs (at once) was to me all about the experience, i soon discovered that it can be about the [unique] TONE also.Once i started combining 2 different rigs (for ONE example reamp zones JVM and Cedricks GSP1101) i discovered that the 2 stereo cabs combine to produce a sound you could never get from just running 2 amps. One fills in the top end etc, one pronounces the mids etc.


    Now, running 2 amps in stereo IS NOTHING LIKE THIS SET UP, ill say it again, people are used too 2 cabs making ONE stereo signal (amp A + Amp B = one stereo signal). I get Stereo in one side from a 2X12 mission cab, AND in another side out of a 2X12 mission cab. Still sounds different guys than one stereo signal ok.


    The Lehle make it tight as a frogs asshole in switching. Look we have never been able to have a cab make stereo in a 2X12 like this, well not in my experience. So in short, its not just the experience of having 2 stereo cabs each side of you THAT CAN BE RUN AT BEDROOM VOLUME AND STILL SOUND LIKE SEX. Nope, its not just the experience.. its the TONE [possibility].


    The only way i can show you guys this point is to run one rig, record it, then run the second and show you how it makes a specific tone with two stereo signals not just the 2amps 2 cabs =one stereo sound.


    The Ambient stuff is just out of this world, i run a dittoX4 out of kemper one, one thing i discovered that , some rigs when you put them on both kempers, because of the 2 stereo cabs it produces a special phasing effect an the sound travels back and forth and almost spirals around back from each cab. To experience that at bedroom volume is some thing that you will never get out of a typical FRFR


    I gotta stop making long posts , learn reaper and get my Fing interface to show you guys.
    End of note to self


    Ash

    Have a beer and don't sneer. -CJ. Two non powered Kempers -Two mission stereo FRFR Cabs - Ditto X4 -TC electronic Mimiq.

    Like 4
    Quote from V8guitar

    Not looking to stir a pot here but can someone tell me the logic behind needing dual amps?
    ....


    As I said genuine question...

    The simple answer is if you have the ability to run dual profiles, you would have the ability to run a profile of an amp and another of a pedal. The only way you can do that now is buying two Kempers. For this reason there really aren't that many Pedal Drives Profiles available and the only way you can use those is with your tube amps if you still have them.

    Dean's nailed it.


    The thing is, dual amps provide "wow" factor when practicing or jamming, no doubt (they can sound huge), but their utility diminishes in live situations and disappears almost-completely in the studio.


    On the other hand, IMHO, the single most-useful enhancement the Kemper could receive would be the ability to run pedal Profiles in FX slots. We already have the ability to Profile pedals. Unfortunately we're restricted to only being able to run them "stand-alone" or as Rigs made in conjunction with amps.

    Quote from Dean_R

    The simple answer is if you have the ability to run dual profiles, you would have the ability to run a profile of an amp and another of a pedal. The only way you can do that now is buying two Kempers. For this reason there really aren't that many Pedal Drives Profiles available and the only way you can use those is with your tube amps if you still have them.


    So, its not necessarily about 2 amps blended for you its about combining pedal profiles with and amp profile...ahh that makes sense. Not sure I'd seen that in previous posts, probably missed it ;)


    So if say you could profile a pedal and save that as an effect that would solve it? I definitely see the benefit of that.

    Dude I have no doubt it sounds massive, but 2 stereo amps...blimey, I'd expect nothing more...


    However, the reason I've backed away from stereo is that in the past I used to run a stereo rig which sounded enormous on its own BUT disappeared in a band, especially with another guitarist there.... do you have that problem at all?

    Hi guys , yes it's fuller than a normal stereo rig, now granted in a normal stereo scenario with 2 guitars the crowd and yourself may not notice so much. But this is not that set up my friends, I can have a stereo cab either side and it cuts through, especially with ambient songs.


    At home it just makes you write music , even at bedroom volume, the new delays just shine so well.
    However sadly it was not cheap


    Ash

    Have a beer and don't sneer. -CJ. Two non powered Kempers -Two mission stereo FRFR Cabs - Ditto X4 -TC electronic Mimiq.

    Edited once, last by ashtweth ().

    Like 3
    Quote from Monkey_Man

    Dean's nailed it.


    The thing is, dual amps provide "wow" factor when practicing or jamming, no doubt (they can sound huge), but their utility diminishes in live situations and disappears almost-completely in the studio.


    On the other hand, IMHO, the single most-useful enhancement the Kemper could receive would be the ability to run pedal Profiles in FX slots. We already have the ability to Profile pedals. Unfortunately we're restricted to only being able to run them "stand-alone" or as Rigs made in conjunction with amps.


    Not really, Nicky. That may be the conventional logic, but the ingredient you need to add is ADT. It will sound just like two guitars on two differently dialled amps and will present a crazy stereo image in front of the stage. You must try this.

    I took ADT into account, AJ. It's something that can be added live or in the studio, and there's also the possibility of real tracking of a 2nd amp.


    This is why I said that "their utility diminishes in live situations and disappears almost-completely in the studio."


    IOW, the effectiveness of tracking dual amps from a modeller is trumped big-time by recording a "genuine" 2nd amp (selected to fit the mix) or implementing ADT (delay / width settings tailored to the mix), and means that engineers would seldom, if ever, favour the former over the latter methods.

    Quote from Monkey_Man

    I took ADT into account, AJ. It's something that can be added live or in the studio, and there's also the possibility of real tracking of a 2nd amp.


    This is why I said that "their utility diminishes in live situations and disappears almost-completely in the studio."


    IOW, the effectiveness of tracking dual amps from a modeller is trumped big-time by recording a "genuine" 2nd amp (selected to fit the mix) or implementing ADT (delay / width settings tailored to the mix), and means that engineers would seldom, if ever, favour the former over the latter methods.


    Ah, that's in the studio. I'd always track the second guitar. I was exclusively talking about in live situations, where - and this is even more true if you have a single guitarist - a dual amp setup can be very effective.



    Quote from Dean_R

    And the audience won't hear it at all unless they're seated in a straight line in the center seats of the stereo field.


    I've been to concerts and I can hear both guitarists even if I am not right at the centre. Sure, one side will be louder due to proximity to the speaker. But it's not like the other side of the stage is completely obliterated.

    Quote from nightlight

    Ah, that's in the studio. I'd always track the second guitar. I was exclusively talking about in live situations, where - and this is even more true if you have a single guitarist - a dual amp setup can be very effective

    Yes, AJ, and if you'd read what I said carefully (both times), you would have noticed that I said "their utility diminishes in live situations and disappears almost-completely in the studio."


    Meaning that in live situations it's not altogether-useless, but, well, diminished in its utility.


    Glad we agree that it's pretty-much useless in the studio. I feel sorry for an engineer who has to deal with a guitarist who insists on recording (and using in the final mix) his particular choice of L and R amps and his particular track-offset delays, all based on a single mono source (guitar, bass or whatever) played through a dual-amp modeller. My head hurts...

    Quote from Monkey_Man

    Yes, AJ, and if you'd read what I said carefully (both times), you would have noticed that I said "their utility diminishes in live situations and disappears almost-completely in the studio."
    Meaning that in live situations it's not altogether-useless, but, well, diminished in its utility.


    Glad we agree that it's pretty-much useless in the studio. I feel sorry for an engineer who has to deal with a guitarist who insists on recording (and using in the final mix) his particular choice of L and R amps and his particular track-offset delays, all based on a single mono source (guitar, bass or whatever) played through a dual-amp modeller. My head hurts...


    We're going in circles, @Monkey_Man! I agreed with what you said and just clarified what I meant!

    I beg to differ go look at a Malsteem gig see how many heads he runs, think that sounds the same as one amp :) , just saying if that is a diminished sound sign me up lol


    I beg to differ on the studio too especially since the dual amps make one special guitar sound, naughty naughty you have not been listening :)
    Mostly I run 2 different rigs and both [together] make a specific sound.


    Rabea runs 2 different amps to get a single sound not just for stereo my friends, he uses a JVM and 5150 , both make up one character that is what I have been saying also if you read ;) So really 2 amps in the studio is relative to get that specific sound,it's not about tracking etc


    To quote Malsteem
    More is more baby (I added in baby)
    8o


    Ash

    Have a beer and don't sneer. -CJ. Two non powered Kempers -Two mission stereo FRFR Cabs - Ditto X4 -TC electronic Mimiq.

    Edited 6 times, last by ashtweth ().

    Like 4

    Having seen Malmsteen a couple of times myself, he sounds no more "huge" to me than anyone else. Also I thought ( but happy to be corrected) he runs the same multiple heads with similar settings...so its done for look and volume rather than some complex blended sound - although as I said I could be wrong.


    Its the need for blending 2 different sounds that seems to be driving this need and I'm trying to understand why. Yeah its not about stereo but about creating a different character...I guess my point is with the current level of flex and options, is this really missing? I assume Rabea uses a combination of JVM and 5150 as they compliment to produce a more complete sound...I'm just wondering if this can't be achieved in other ways ( stomps, different amps etc). I don;t know if he got this by deliberate experimentation or just happened to love both amps and wondered what combining would sound like? Anyway, that does make sense :)


    Perhaps because I'm in a two guitar band and simpler sounds cut better ( a la Angus method of no reverb and less gain) is why I'm missing the point :)....oh and I'm also pretty simple ha

    Personally, I record dual amps separately when tracking, however I often use them in real-time when testing ideas as it saves time by giving me an idea of which two mic'd amps work well together prior to recording.

    Quote from MuddySludge

    Once an engineer stifles the players vision of sound and how to get it,
    You just killed his art. Help the guy do it his way best you can. 8)

    Finally someone with sense on this issue.. :thumbup:


    Dual profiles are big fun for sure..I also would like to have this with the kemper but I would only use it for my "personal fun"..I have seen enough guitar players doing this on their own and most of the times the result was that they just butchered the bands recordings for their ego.


    There is a reason why metallica still needs a top class producer and a dozen world class engineers for their albums which do nothing else than to give all these guitars the space in the mix without to kill the rest (voc,drums).You can "try this at home".But if the result is good it will be most likey "sheer luck" and nothing else.Bob Rock and Micheal Wagener are well known for a reason.. ;)

    Quote from Nikos

    ...You can "try this at home".But if the result is good it will be most likey "sheer luck"...

    A tool worth close to $2000 should provide more than just "sheer luck" .


    I just bought a tool for around $200 that fits in my pocket that is a DI (can be used directly with my tube amps) that can load third party impulse responses, Fully parametric EQ with High and Low Pass filters, Room Simulator, Power Amp simulator,. The beauty of it is it can be used with real world tube amps, preamps in case you don't want to use AMP simulators for live and studio work and home recording also.


    Meanwhile my Kemper is still unable to profile the gain knob of the tube amps, there's no tone stacks and no room simulation for the cabs, so for recording and live, I'm now having better "Luck" with real tube amps and impulse loader. I actually made some IRs of some of the Kemper Proifles I like and they actually sound better with my new setup, go figure.

    Quote from Dean_R

    A tool worth close to $2000 should provide more than just "sheer luck" .
    I just bought a tool for around $200 that fits in my pocket that is a DI (can be used directly with my tube amps) that can load third party impulse responses, Fully parametric EQ with High and Low Pass filters, Room Simulator, Power Amp simulator,. The beauty of it is it can be used with real world tube amps, preamps in case you don't want to use AMP simulators for live and studio work and home recording also.


    Meanwhile my Kemper is still unable to profile the gain knob of the tube amps, there's no tone stacks and no room simulation for the cabs, so for recording and live, I'm now having better "Luck" with real tube amps and impulse loader. I actually made some IRs of some of the Kemper Proifles I like and they actually sound better with my new setup, go figure.

    The difference, of course, being that Kemper is a professional grade tool with sound quality equivalent to a tube amp (or every tube amp).

    Quote from OneEng1

    The difference, of course, being that Kemper is a professional grade tool with sound quality equivalent to a tube amp (or every tube amp).

    And so is a tube amp with an "AMT Pangea" or similar device. Connect tube amp speaker out to "DI Impulse Loader" and you never have to mike your amp again, live or the studio consistent sound always.