Single Thread for Everything, or Individual Threads?

Quote from Ingolf

Quite the contrary.
Next time I feel inclined to buy new profiles I'll give it to charity instead.

It was obviously a joke.

Quote from Inthrutheout

But the way I see it they did not create the technology or the hardware.
Thus on the back of Kemper. I do understand it is how the Kemper works.This is what it is for.

Was it intended to go where it is now? Was it more for profiling your own amp for yourself and or to share?
Or was the micro industry planned.

nah, that's nonsense. By that logic are you only "allowed" to record music on a guitar you built yourself? With a mic you invented yourself?
Through a cab made out of a tree you planted yourself? (I can go on but I guess you get my drift )

They intended it to do what they made it to do. Everything else is speculation. And giving the fact that there's a commercial 3rd party profile section in their own forum, I doubt that they aren't ok with it and didn't expect it.

Quote from Inthrutheout

Either way.
I still think Kemper should have hired/ created a very talented audio engineering group just to create all of the Profiles.
No Profiling capabilities on the unit itself. Their jump above the competition is still the fact that the rigs are profiled, not emulated.
They could have rented or leased the amps to be profiled. Kept it all in house.This being more for a sound business decision. In my opinion.
OR sold KPAs with profiling capabilities for a much higher price for the commercial guys.

This probably would have kept the quality of profiles to their max and avoided the mess that is the exchange. It is not getting any smaller or more refined.

Done correctly, even nicer profits for Kemper. This could have been done while charging less for the profiles because all profiles would be funneled through them.

(...)

Still sticking to the one time link to their website idea though.

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That would have been a bad move on different levels (no profiling/profiling only for a high price).

-the unit would be useless for most studios and pro musicians that need to save tones they came up with themselves -> lot less units sold.
-elitism only benefits the one with most $$$, not necessarily the ones who come up with the best ideas/products
-higher price for kempers that can profile? How do you think that would influence the price of profiles? (I give you a hint, they wouldn't be lower than they are now).
-only kemper making profiles? One of THE most defining part about the product would be gone. It would be a bit of a better sounding AXE FX, essentially.
But with less modding possibilities. The profiling process is the key feature of the kemper, not making it available for the customer would make it just another amp sim box in my eyes. Even if I like the sound of that box the most compared to others cause is based on profiling rather than modelling yadayada....

More people able to create profiles for the kemper = higher chances of selling more kempers cause people want to use those sounds. Or do I miss something in that logic?
Your logic basically limits/decreases the amount of available choices/exposure, I doubt that that can stand against "higher quality" stock kemper stuff.
The Kemper had to come with all those 1000 rigs filled, to make everyone happy. And then I guess people like you would complain because there is too much profiles on there stock, because ->

"rig exchange is a mess" well hard to argue that profiles on there aren't getting less. But with the rig manager you can go through them so quick (seach function). If you don't want to invest the time in that, then don't. But complaining about too much choice always has been weird in my eyes.
the kemper already comes with good profiles in it when you get it (especially nowadays). so if you don't wanna expend them, don't.

or go to the commercial section and see what others like, there's your "more refined" filter right there.

why I think one time sticking of links is a bad idea? cause you won't know when there's an update in any of these sites that might interest you.
Do you wanna subscribe to x amount of newsletters instead?

I'm talking mostly as a consumer here. I'll just adept to whatever rules get to be decided as a seller, that's up to kemper and how they wanna handle it.

My suggestion is to have a sub forum under commercial for each seller and then have a separate thread for each pack or sale event within your sub forum.

Quote from mwinter77

My suggestion is to have a sub forum under commercial for each seller and then have a separate thread for each pack or sale event within your sub forum.

Yes, I think that would be great, especially if couple with the ability to limit searches to subforums. All this discussion aside, I personally wasn't bothered that much by the way things were, and I for one am very happy that we have commercial profilers. Rather than seeing them on the back of Kemper, I see them more as mutually benefiting from each other. I honestly don't know if I would have bought a Kemper if it came loaded with a preset list of amps, like the Eleven Rack, and that's it. I might have, but the ability to try out new amps is what makes it such a fun product.

Quote from Mago

nah, that's nonsense. By that logic are you only "allowed" to record music on a guitar you built yourself? With a mic you invented yourself?
Through a cab made out of a tree you planted yourself? (I can go on but I guess you get my drift )

They intended it to do what they made it to do. Everything else is speculation. And giving the fact that there's a commercial 3rd party profile section in their own forum, I doubt that they aren't ok with it and didn't expect it.

That would have been a bad move on different levels (no profiling/profiling only for a high price).

-the unit would be useless for most studios and pro musicians that need to save tones they came up with themselves -> lot less units sold.
-elitism only benefits the one with most $$$, not necessarily the ones who come up with the best ideas/products
-higher price for kempers that can profile? How do you think that would influence the price of profiles? (I give you a hint, they wouldn't be lower than they are now).
-only kemper making profiles? One of THE most defining part about the product would be gone. It would be a bit of a better sounding AXE FX, essentially.
But with less modding possibilities. The profiling process is the key feature of the kemper, not making it available for the customer would make it just another amp sim box in my eyes. Even if I like the sound of that box the most compared to others cause is based on profiling rather than modelling yadayada....

More people able to create profiles for the kemper = higher chances of selling more kempers cause people want to use those sounds. Or do I miss something in that logic?
Your logic basically limits/decreases the amount of available choices/exposure, I doubt that that can stand against "higher quality" stock kemper stuff.
The Kemper had to come with all those 1000 rigs filled, to make everyone happy. And then I guess people like you would complain because there is too much profiles on there stock, because ->

"rig exchange is a mess" well hard to argue that profiles on there aren't getting less. But with the rig manager you can go through them so quick (seach function). If you don't want to invest the time in that, then don't. But complaining about too much choice always has been weird in my eyes.
the kemper already comes with good profiles in it when you get it (especially nowadays). so if you don't wanna expend them, don't.

or go to the commercial section and see what others like, there's your "more refined" filter right there.

why I think one time sticking of links is a bad idea? cause you won't know when there's an update in any of these sites that might interest you.
Do you wanna subscribe to x amount of newsletters instead?

I'm talking mostly as a consumer here. I'll just adept to whatever rules get to be decided as a seller, that's up to kemper and how they wanna handle it.

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Nah, your nonsense.
Your opinion sucks and has no merit. How does that feel?

Please don`t over dramatize my points and say I am whining and complaining. Where in hell did you get that from?
I never said nobody should be able to profile on their own.
I never said that Kemper wasnt OK with it either. Just curious if this was his intention when he started the whole thing. Probably was.

I totally disagree with it being a bad idea if Kemper had full control over profiling from the start. On a business stand point I believe it could have worked out quite well.

If you were never offered the opportunity to profile on your own, you would have never missed it. The old, never loved, never lost thing. Get my point?

His offering would have been a profiled Rig (His questionably superior method of recreating an amp/ cab) as opposed to a fully synthetic interpretation of an amp/ cab.
His methods of going about this are unique. Also that he could offer any one you want.

He has the right to claim his comes directly from the amp/ cab.

Yes, the prices could have very well been less expensive when they are pumped out from one studio. You need a lesson in simple economics.
The way it is now, a single profiler can only put out so much because of hardware needs such as amps and all. Sells less so to make money he needs to charge more. Some more than others.

The end result is software. Create it once and you have all of the product you want with the push of a button. If everybody has to go through you, you get ALL of the sales. You do the math.
Quality control could have been much tighter than it is also.

It doesnt really matter at this point, his direction has been set and it is all fine and generous of the way he went about it. I am not sure if he even considered my method or not. I believe he did, at least to some degree.

As far as not knowing if there are updates with the one link method. How bad could it possibly be to subscribe to your favorite profilers newsletter? Sheesh. How many would you need to subscribe to?
Either subscribe or search every day? Once again you do the math.

A lot of what I say is thinking out loud and what ifs.
Its not a big deal.

If I missed anything it is because I really dont care that much.

Of course you wont agree with me. You are a bit bias considering you are getting a constant free advertising outlet and this would hinder that a bit.

If you want to disagree with me, that is fine, I can take it, but in the future try to be a little less insulting when you do it.

Change for the better is good, but I think constant changing and moving contents around in forums is usually for the worse. Every time I google a topic and click on a link to a place even in the same website that no longer exists, I wonder if changes are actually making thing much more difficult to find...I think it's worth considering the whole web and all the links in all the other forums that might reference a page here that will become dead links.

a couple of you mentioned a sub forum for each seller. i can understand that this would be a solution and tidy up certain aspects. but it wouldn't regulate what most users were complaining about. also, it would add more work for us. also, we would have to decide who's worthy a folder. i don't believe this is a situation we want to be.
if a seller likes to structure his information in a certain way and use whatever language and strategy for his marketing effort there is already a solution: use your own website. we give you a free advertisement space. if the rules are to restrictive for you (and i don't believe that's the case), there are several ways for you to deal with it.
don't get me wrong, we want you here. but we've received to many complains about the way some were advertise for their products. we got complains from advertisers about other advertisers and that part really got a bit into kindergarten territory. we are here for our users and potential users in the first place. it is important to us that they enjoy the forum.

i hope this doesn't come across as harsh but if so: i don't mean it like that at all.
gs

I think it will be easier to read and faster for me to do it this way, my response in red and italic

Quote from Inthrutheout

Nah, your nonsense.
Your opinion sucks and has no merit. How does that feel?

Feels a bit like I'm talking to a child.
Cause I never said your opinions plainly sucks and has no merit. I gave you reasons for why I disagree with them, not judgement about you or your opinion.

Please don`t over dramatize my points and say I am whining and complaining. Where in hell did you get that from?
I never said nobody should be able to profile on their own.
I never said that Kemper wasnt OK with it either. Just curious if this was his intention when he started the whole thing. Probably was.

Might be the medium then, cause to me it seemed a bit whiny with the "rig exchange is a mess" together with the "poor kemper getting abused" (paraphrasing here) comments.
One of your "what ifs" was actually "nobody should be able to profile exept kemper", quite literally.
Fair enough on the last point.

I totally disagree with it being a bad idea if Kemper had full control over profiling from the start. On a business stand point I believe it could have worked out quite well.

Then we just disagree on that one then.

If you were never offered the opportunity to profile on your own, you would have never missed it. The old, never loved, never lost thing. Get my point?

If by "you" you mean me personally: I would have never missed it, but only because I never would have bought a Kemper. Being able to profile my own rigs for production work was the main reason why I bought it. But I get your point.

His offering would have been a profiled Rig (His questionably superior method of recreating an amp/ cab) as opposed to a fully synthetic interpretation of an amp/ cab.
His methods of going about this are unique. Also that he could offer any one you want.

Again, from a consumer perspective it wouldn't have been much different and new than any other box right now, in terms of you get a box and there are sounds on it. The way they are created matters a lot with the Kemper I think, and it's much more of an experience to take part in that by seeing other customers creating profiles, rather than just Kemper itself. But I'm fine if we just disagree on that one as well.

He has the right to claim his comes directly from the amp/ cab.

That is true

Yes, the prices could have very well been less expensive when they are pumped out from one studio. You need a lesson in simple economics.
The way it is now, a single profiler can only put out so much because of hardware needs such as amps and all. Sells less so to make money he needs to charge more. Some more than others.

My response to that was in the scenario of Kempers who can profile cost more, so I'll go from there: Really don't think they would be cheaper. Higher costs for production of profiles, less competition because less people make profiles, I don't know why in that scenario the price for profiles would be lower than they are now. That much for needing lessons on economics (altho you're right, I sure could use lessons in that if I was interested in it).

The end result is software. Create it once and you have all of the product you want with the push of a button. If everybody has to go through you, you get ALL of the sales. You do the math.
Quality control could have been much tighter than it is also.

The way I see it is that Kemper created a tool for people to use. Stihl also doesn't complain when people use one of their chainsaws to cut down a tree and sell the wood. They didn't go into the lumberjack business, but in the lumberjack tool business. Same for Kemper with audio.
But yeah, they could have done it differently. They didn't tho. But you're right on the QC part.

It doesnt really matter at this point, his direction has been set and it is all fine and generous of the way he went about it. I am not sure if he even considered my method or not. I believe he did, at least to some degree.

See my last paragraph.

As far as not knowing if there are updates with the one link method. How bad could it possibly be to subscribe to your favorite profilers newsletter? Sheesh. How many would you need to subscribe to?
Either subscribe or search every day? Once again you do the math.

I much rather check a forum whenever I want to, to get updates, rather than be getting emails all the time. Personal preference.

A lot of what I say is thinking out loud and what ifs.
Its not a big deal.

Seemed like a big deal to me, again blaming the medium.

If I missed anything it is because I really dont care that much.

lol

Of course you wont agree with me. You are a bit bias considering you are getting a constant free advertising outlet and this would hinder that a bit.

Fair enough for you to think that, altho it isn't that way. I'm thinking mostly from a consumer perspective. As I said, I'm fine with everything Kemper decides to do.

If you want to disagree with me, that is fine, I can take it, but in the future try to be a little less insulting when you do it.

Nothing wrong with disagreeing imo. If you can point out where I was insulting then I'll do.
I don't think I was at all.

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Soooooooo yeah.
Overall what bugged me about your post, was the whole profiting of the back of kemper thing. It's not. Kemper is a tool and ppl use it. Simple.
No amount of "what ifs" has anything to do with that or change it.

I'm happy about the current rules. If they will be followed it should be the best way for everyone to be able to check the forum without having to scroll through countless pages of bumped stuff.
We'll see if it plays out or not.

back to topic, gentlemen...

Alright, back to topic:
No arguing here, just don't get something: What exactly has changed? The subforum Commercial Announcements (despite some shortened titles) is pretty much the same as the old commercial subforum, isn't it? So there is a further subforum Third party Rigs discussion that is actually intended to host the talk reagrding the announcements in the Commercial Announcements subforum, right? Again, no aguing, I just feel like I am missing something. Wouldn't that only make sense, if the announcements were closed for non-sellers?

Quote from Fireloogie

What exactly has changed?.. Again, no aguing, I just feel like I am missing something.

I think it's just the rules that have changed or are about to, 'Loogie.

Unless all the vendors take the time to trawl through their legacy threads and alter titles appropriately as well as flag "duplicates" (according to the new / proposed rules) for the mods to remove (Guido's done this, I noticed), the sub-forum will look the same. As new threads are added it'll gradually take on the new look anyway. Once a bunch have been added and older ones bumped (and their titles edited), it'll be obvious at a glance where the cutoff point is, which would address the issue that prompted this whole thing - folks who found the old-format titles distracting wouldn't need to be exposed to them (don't click back that far), and the generic "unread-posts" list wouldn't show the offending threads (unless one went way back in time) because even if they were to be revived, it'd be up to the OPs (vendors) to edit the titles to suit the new rules.

I think that's the gist of it, although I've not studied the last couple of pages closely...

Next-day Edit:
Having read Don's latest post on the matter, I suggest ignoring this post other than to treat it as a possible, "simpler" alternative.

people still discuss i in the anouncment threads.....how can we stop that?

I don't understand why they shouldn't discuss there. it's the best place for instant reaction to an updated thread (new profiles, new soundsamples etc.) IMHO.
If it's not desired that people discuss there then the only solution would be that the mods close all threads(which doesn't make sense to me at all) OR sellers and users will get different permissions by the forum system.. Sellers can post there AND Users can't! (which doesn't make sense to me too).

But thats the point about the new rules

2 sections

1 for updates by sellers
1 for discussion

otherwise the new rules make no sense

I've seen that but does it really make sense?
As I said the only way to stop the discussion in the anouncment threads would be:
Closing all threads OR sellers and users will get different permissions by the forum system.. Sellers can post there AND Users can't! (which doesn't make sense to me too). ;-=)

to me it makes sense

- to minimize thread bumps

the only point is that without different permission system it doesn´t really work at the moment

Without a solution it will be like before (same with long thread titles...)

yeah Lars is right.

If only sellers could post in the announcement section (or if people would actually read the rules) then the announcement section would work more like an index and news bulletin thing, especially if every vendor only had one main thread. You'd ever only need to check the first 2 pages to get all updates you need in that case.

It makes sense that non sellers can't post there, cause they can open threads in the third rig party discussion subforum.

I understand the logic behind this but i think it's almost impossible to prohibit 20.000 users to post in the anouncement threads.

the difference is between starting threads and posting in a thread.

vendors can start threads in the commercial announcements forum and reply to a thread started in the third party discussion forum that involves them. (see sticky for details)

customers can start threads in the third party discussion forum, or ask questions about a rig pack in the commercial announcements forum, provided they use the appropiate thread (an example question would be to inquire which microphones the vendors used), thereby giving the vendor the chance to reply to a question about his product directly.

overall, the 'volume' was also turned down for a more pleasant browsing experience.

Thx for the info