Kemper vs. Real Amp Test - Cameron CCV

    Quote from SonicExporer

    For some styles maybe but for those who know what to listen for you can hear the KPA "signature" in many profiles involving gain, and some not even involving much gain. I have yet to hear hardly any (IMO near zero) profiles that do the 80's cranked Marshall style correctly. Sure, lots of profiles and many claims but almost zero actually achieve it. The closest I've heard so far involved either EQ matching or taking 2 very different profiles and dual tracking them.
    Herd mentality doesn't make it so. EMPEROR'S NEW CLOTHES. You might want to read it.


    And as Dimi said, this isn't an absolute all or nothing. But there are absolutely issues that need resolving if the KPA is to properly compete with the sound of a real amp IMO.


    Sonic

    I'm certainly not the one wearing the EMPEROR'S NEW CLOTHES. If memory serves me correctly, you're the one who said that you thought that to you the POD Bean sounds better than the KPA and you're the one who had issues with wrong connections and blamed it on the Kemper, you're certainly the one who keeps finding all these treasure troves of KPA shortcomings and almost consistently it was your user error.


    I got consistent results from day one when I received the KPA profiling my amps with stunning accuracy, but you're still unable to do that and all you can come up with is blame the company (somebody else) because you're clearly wearing the Emperor's new cloths.


    If I had to struggle that long to get good result from a piece of gear as long as you have, I would have moved on a long time ago instead of persisting that everyone else doesn't have your special ears that can detect the slightest difference and constantly posting the same repetitive ambiguous statements about congestions. In this case, you can trust me, it's not how you see it that everyone is wrong and everyone can't hear, it's quite the opposite :D

    Quote from chrismilne

    .... I also think after a while the distortion character seems to sound the same between all amps (not exactly of course but as though they are built from the same preset)...

    All tube amps have more in common that many players realize and it's very easy to get very similar sounds from varied tube amps, if the same or similar cabinet is used, it becomes more apparent.

    I have always thought there is something missing from amp profiles, although they are really close.


    When comparing a real amp beside the Kemper , the Kemper seemed to lose the character of the guitar and the initial attack. Adding in some of the direct signal helps a lot with adding that back in.


    Secondly the low end fullness seems to go missing a bit. That low end tightness. This is harder to add back in, but I do find that adding a Fulltone 2B after the Kemper helps but only going to my cab and not the other outputs.


    One other thing the Kemper does is add in more harmonic overtones than a tube amp. It seems to enhance some harmonic frequencies and you end up getting weird ghost notes sometimes.


    Some of this could just be my opinion, of course.


    Still I play my Kemper 99% of the time now.

    Quote from SonicExporer

    Fret buzz is something to add to the list of tone concerns, along with congestion and rasp (gain structure). Something about the way the KPA processes the signal is making it hyper sensitive, such as to fret buzz, in a way I'v never, ever heard before. It's quite overdone. Maybe that's a clue and related to the other tone concerns, hard to say.

    You're blaming fret buzz on the Kemper! 8o LOL ! You very likely need to level or proper dress your frets. it's not that difficult, but on the other hand some might consider slight buzzing a nice character to have in a guitar :evil:

    If you're experiencing a greater sensitivity to e.g. fret buzz then that's down to how the patch is working. High levels of compression would account for this, check the amp block compression and that you're not e.g. having a boost in front of the amp block from a green scream or a compressor.


    It's entirely possible you're raising gain rather than raising volume, the classic bedroom guitarists problem. It doesn't sound loud enough so they dime the distortion because it fills out the frequencies and makes things sound bigger, more full, but distortion works clipping and creating natural compression. If you're doing this then you need to turn up your speakers and turn down the gain. Then you need to play with your input sens settings on the Kemper, theyr'e designed to balance volume between clean and dirty signals, contrary to how a real amp works where changing gain changes volume, the Kemper can via those two controls be made to keep volume, or even get quieter. Poorly adjusted they could result in an overtly lively amp response, too much sensitivity for a guitarist used more to a Marshall rather than a Mesa.

    Quote from chrismilne

    I'm pretty sure Sinmix posted on many topics and showed the differences that he hears in his own profiles, and others have posted clips of the issues they experience or dislike. No one (that i know of) is here to bash the Kemper they want it to improve.


    I hear certain things, like the "congestion" sound as described here, as well as some slight unnatural sounds with low/mid gain profiles or even rolling back my volume knob on some types of amps. I also think after a while the distortion character seems to sound the same between all amps (not exactly of course but as though they are built from the same preset). The other thing is it tends to push some midrange frequencies that cause a "cocked wah" type of sound in a lot of profiles (free and commercial). I've listened to nearly every clip from every popular commercial vendor so I know what i'm listening for, i've bought many profiles and this is present in nearly every one to varying degrees. I think the biggest issues are Marshall sounds and power tube distortion that tends to exaggerate the "congestion" sound.


    That being said it blows away (for me) any other modeler i've used (haven't used an Axe FX)...but it is WAY more expensive too.

    Most of the things you describe here I have tried to show in tests."Congestion" was a term I came up with, for that matter (not to take credit or anything, lol).


    I hope to have a reply from developer team.

    Quote from Per

    If you're experiencing a greater sensitivity to e.g. fret buzz then that's down to how the patch is working. High levels of compression would account for this, check the amp block compression and that you're not e.g. having a boost in front of the amp block from a green scream or a compressor.


    It's entirely possible you're raising gain rather than raising volume, the classic bedroom guitarists problem. It doesn't sound loud enough so they dime the distortion because it fills out the frequencies and makes things sound bigger, more full, but distortion works clipping and creating natural compression. If you're doing this then you need to turn up your speakers and turn down the gain. Then you need to play with your input sens settings on the Kemper, theyr'e designed to balance volume between clean and dirty signals, contrary to how a real amp works where changing gain changes volume, the Kemper can via those two controls be made to keep volume, or even get quieter. Poorly adjusted they could result in an overtly lively amp response, too much sensitivity for a guitarist used more to a Marshall rather than a Mesa.

    Hmmm....I will look into this further. I do have Distortion Sense at 3.0, but keep the gain in most profiles around 5 or 6, so nothing is jacked up. And no other boost stomps, unless just to color with a boost at most +1. Compression is usually off in amp stack. I noticed this fret buzz sensitivity especially with the bass guitar, massive difference between the SansAmp and the KPA. I might profile and test if I have time to see how much is a direct result of the KPA and what aspects of the KPA may be contributing. Also have noticed this with guitar as well, but not as prominent, just extremely sensitive and sometimes strange random "sounds" in the very high frequency ranges (for lack of a better explanation). Not sure if this is "ghost notes" I see some people refer to?

    Quote from drog

    One other thing the Kemper does is add in more harmonic overtones than a tube amp. It seems to enhance some harmonic frequencies and you end up getting weird ghost notes sometimes.

    I would probably call that the "cocked wah" character (if we are talking about the same thing) I most often try to dial out as much as possible. The frequencies present in many profiles bring out subtle overtones you may get from a cocked wah pedal or a tubescreamer on higher tone values.


    There can also be some aliasing (which you may be referring to as well).

    Quote from SonicExporer

    I didn't receive much of a meaningful response anyway when I tried to raise tone concerns and toget guidance on profile/refining technique.

    Exactly, improvement is the hope.


    Fret buzz is something to add to the list of tone concerns, along with congestion and rasp (gain structure). Something about the way the KPA processes the signal is making it hyper sensitive, such as to fret buzz, in a way I'v never, ever heard before. It's quite overdone. Maybe that's a clue and related to the other tone concerns, hard to say.

    I agree on the fret buzz, etc...i find this true of all modelers/software amps It's not fret buzz like your action is too low, it's more like any touch of the string is super sensitive and noisy...and i also do not add compression to any patches. I admit i don't spend a ton of time changing profiles other than small tweaks, as i presume it should be in the ballpark or i'll just move on to another profile that is (when i have more time i will spend it dialing in each profile and comparing each guitar i have etc). As mentioned, we are just trying to raise the issues to Kemper in hopes that in the future they make an even greater product (because right now the only way i can buy an amp better than the Kemper is to sell my Kemper to get the money back and i'm not ready to do that yet). I'm a relatively new owner, and have gone back and forth about keeping or selling but it does a lot of things great and is convenient it's just a matter of getting my money worth and being happy in the investment.


    I'm currently using pedals for effects still but at some point will spend more time with the on board fx. My only wishlist besides making more accurate profiles, is a better reverb and a way to run a real amp through the kemper and use it as a cab SIM/FX unit for direct recording (i don't think you can do this right? ...but i'm pretty sure many players use the Axe FX like this..at least for FX only) and avoid having to get another unit like two notes, but not have to deal with any in the box latency. That however is a small nice to have compared to better profiles and reverb.

    Quote from Dimi84

    I would probably call that the "cocked wah" character (if we are talking about the same thing) I most often try to dial out as much as possible. The frequencies present in many profiles bring out subtle overtones you may get from a cocked wah pedal or a tubescreamer on higher tone values.
    There can also be some aliasing (which you may be referring to as well).

    I don't think the cocked wah is in play here. That usualy comes from dropping some low end and altering the midrange frequencies more than anything else. What @drog is referring to is the strange harmonic content in the KPA tones in trying to emulate a tube amp. That content is a large part of what is perceived as the gain structure, and something isn't right with the KPA's representation IMO. I don't know if it's a calculation issue, or lack of some order harmonics, or other. But something isn't right IMO. It instead produces a rasp, or sometimes referred to almost as fizz, just doesn't sound natural and helps contribute to a less than real amp sound IMO. It may also be responsible for the congestion.

    Almost always, when I play a different room the profiles never sound exactly the same due to the acoustics of the room. The same goes for amps. As the amps ages (along with tubes), its sound is going to change as well.

    The key to everything is patience.
    You get the chicken by hatching the egg, not by smashing it.
    -- Arnold H. Glasow


    If it doesn't produce results, don't do it.

    -- Me

    Quote from HCarlH

    Almost always, when I play a different room the profiles never sound exactly the same due to the acoustics of the room. The same goes for amps. As the amps ages (along with tubes), its sound is going to change as well.

    It's not a matter of room acoustics what some of us are identifiying. Last week, I did a profiling session of my amp in a studio and the profiles were really good and close to the amp but there was that raspiness/congestion/whatever at the high mids. The studio engineer called it "a phase issue". If this issue could be fixed, the KPA would be perfect to me.

    I wonder what will happen when CK and team release the update with the verbs. If they include some sort of IR verb (and capturing during profiling) then I suspect all of this will come to a close as I really think what people are hearing is the difference between a totally dry no verb track and one with that tiny bit of room sound, the natural and subtle "comb filtering" that happens from reflected sound being that "phase issue" some hear.


    Of course if CK did that they he'd have difficulties because I'm not sure he could ramp up production enough to fulfill all the studios that would just want the KPA for it's room/verb "profiling" capabilities. But hey he'd prolly become crazy rich (and rightly so) and we'd all have nothing else to kvetch about... so don't do it CK! Preserve the community! You don't want this place to turn into a silent wasteland of guitarists too busy to chat to each other, and only able to complain about Fender and Gibsons build quality these days....

    Quote from pacocito

    It's not a matter of room acoustics what some of us are identifiying. Last week, I did a profiling session of my amp in a studio and the profiles were really good and close to the amp but there was that raspiness/congestion/whatever at the high mids. The studio engineer called it "a phase issue". If this issue could be fixed, the KPA would be perfect to me.

    If you are able to get two short clips from the studio, one with the real amp and one using the profile, and send them to Support at Kemper in a ticket describing what you just explained it would be timely and possibly very helpful toward encouraging Kemper to have their engineers look into fixing this issue.