teach me about drives

    Quote from Nikos

    So what went wrong and thousands and thousands of guitar players all over the world ditched their pedals and either went for "modifications" of their 800s or bought SLOs/5150s or Rectifiers??

    I was only having a laugh. I know there is way more to it than just single tube or diodes.


    I remember using 100w JCM800s in rehearsal rooms back in the day and absolutely hating them. It turned out that the reason (at least in my case) was that I just never got them running hard enough for the power amps to really saturate and do their thing. With those amps, a large part of the magic was in the output section.


    I still have a Rev G Rectifier that was my main amp from around 1996 until I got the Kemper and I love it but that amp and Soldanos etc rely on the pre-amp for the tone with a clean high headroom power amp to make it loud.


    Two very different approaches but both wonderful when done well.


    It is true however that a large number of very successful amps did, and still do, use diodes in the clipping section. Almost every Marshall since the JCM800, the JMP1 preamp, Blackstar etc and I believe even the Dumble FET mode is a solid state clipping circuit. Most people don't even know that these "all valve" amps that they love are actually getting their distortion from a build in overdrive pedal.

    FYI, the Dumble FET is not a traditional clipping circuit where the signal is driven into an upper or lower rail. It is a FET based preamp circuit that can add mild (even with a touch of odd harmonic) drive in its standard configuration. Most Dumbles, especially ODS types, are insanely good with humbuckers, but not nearly so with single coils. The FET is a common way to to obtain some extra drive when using single coils. Some of this is open for debate, but this is my experience.

    Quote from lbieber

    There were lot's of 'traditional' amps modded with cascaded gain staging, diode clippers(silicon, germanium, LEDs), different types of master volume, PAB, biasing, etc... Most were looking for more, like goes to '11'. ;) Also, music was changing and super high gain became a thing guitarists desired.


    Boutique became a thing, but mods came first simply because so many amps already existed and it is easier to mod an existing amp rather than build a full amp from scratch.


    Judging by the effect pedal market, it seems not that many ditched pedals for very long if at all. Guitarists seem to be on an endless, outward search for some 'magic'. IME, most never look inside of themselves.

    Things developed rapidly in the '80. Ultra Fast. Mods,racks,"boutique"..Ofcourse for us europeans..whatever came from the USA..we copied it.


    But pedals were never part of the hype in the "golden era". Not at all. Rather the "enemy no1".


    I remember vividly when I noticed this "pedal-revival" at the beginning of the 2000s and young lads asked "what OD used Eddie on eruption" or Ingwie on far beyond the sun..


    That was an interesting time.

    I guess it depends on how you define the 'golden era'. Pedals were being used in the 60s and 70s A LOT. And I don't remember them being the enemy no1. Didn't happen IME. It seems you and I are from different generations with different memories or viewpoints. All good...

    Quote from lbieber

    I guess it depends on how you define the 'golden era'. Pedals were being used in the 60s and 70s A LOT. And I don't remember them being the enemy no1. Didn't happen IME. It seems you and I are from different generations with different memories or viewpoints. All good...


    How many pedals do you know from the 60s and 70s?


    I mean OD and Dist-pedals?


    And in the '80s which pedal was the "choice of the guitar heroes"???


    Don't like to argue with you. Just curious.

    Even back then ..100w were "to much".


    Most players I knew were hunting for 2204. I had (actually still have) a 1981 2204..


    Had some "obscenely good offers" but kept it because I wanted it to modify and use it myself. It is still in original condition and I see now offers again in the 3000-4000€ on eBay.. hmm..

    I would submit that we’re in the tail end of the Golden Age of guitar pedals. Huge popularity, tons of quality choices at any price range.


    Something I didn’t know is that Boss released its first six pedals in 1978.

    “Without music, life would be a mistake.” - Friedrich Nietzsche

    I had a Dan Armstrong treble booster, a big muff, an MXR distortion +, and Fuzz face myself. I bought the treble booster in 75 and all others came after that.


    From memory Maestro fuzz, Fuzzrite, Tonebender, Rangemaster, Boss offered a few I think.


    Along the way 80s and beyond I owned many others

    Quote from lbieber

    I had a Dan Armstrong treble booster, a big muff, an MXR distortion +, and Fuzz face myself. I bought the treble booster in 75 and all others came after that.


    From memory Maestro fuzz, Fuzzrite, Tonebender, Rangemaster, Boss offered a few I think.


    Along the way 80s and beyond I owned many others

    Absolutely..fuzz..


    Treble boosters..that mxr..wasn't that a treble booster too?


    All the drives and distortion pedals came later in the 80s. I wouldn't say that people loved them. As they did not love the od-channel of the 2205/2210.


    Otherwise there would have not been this hysteria with the marshall mods of the 2204 back then.


    Anyway..

    The MXR+ was not a treble booster. For me the trick was to use an almost dead 9V battery. It was maybe the best drive pedal ever in that configuration.


    The DA treble booster was a great unit as well. Plugged right into the guitar. Did way more than the name indicates.


    We have a slighty different perespective. Maybe due to location? I appreciate your viewpoint.

    Quote from lbieber

    The MXR+ was not a treble booster. For me the trick was to use an almost dead 9V battery. It was maybe the best drive pedal ever in that configuration.


    The DA treble booster was a great unit as well. Plugged right into the guitar. Did way more than the name indicates.


    We have a slighty different perespective. Maybe due to location? I appreciate your viewpoint.

    All good. I fully agree with you. I just don't remember anyone back then in the 80s who was into any kind of pedal hype. That's all..

    Dalls Rangemaster was used by many well known guitarists. Didn't many guitarists used rack effects with built in OD's in the 80's?

    Dallas Rangemaster Treble Booster - Wikipedia

    Think for yourself, or others will think for you wihout thinking of you

    Henry David Thoreau

    My first real amp was a JCm800 100W, glorious sound...but only had 1 sound and that only appeared at ear splitting volumes...the volume control was closer to an on off switch....less than 1 and it sounded fizzy and awful, above 1, ouch...but interestingly still less gain than a modern high gain amp - but I still have a soft spot for them..


    People then used power attenuators to get that sound or tended to move towards pedals to get that front end distortion until master volumes really took off. I remember still not getting enough gain from a Marshall DSL so I can see why some people wanted more..


    Hence my view ( which I think most people seem to agree) that pedals originally were driven out of the desire for more gain at lower volumes, which the amps weren't providing. Then Amp makers cottened on to this, higher gain amps appeared and pedals went into a "lull". This was the 80's where you had 2 ways to go - modded amps or racks...I did the whole ADA MP-1 thing...


    Pedals definitely re-emerged 10-20 years ago as a boutique thing. They because more sophisticated and some had tubes in etc. Guitarists talked about cascading gains stages which couldn't be replicated in any amp's gain stages, but I never bought into that - it seemed like a fad.


    Its not all myth and magic as I'm sure this is partially true, but for me, I've always had high gain amps ( Laney, ENGL) and so never needed that addition "thing".


    Anything I added always added more noise and usually took something away from the sound.

    Quote from V8guitar

    In the "old" days, drives were often needed because of the lack of a master volume or just not enough gain in an amp. Most people used cheap boss type solid state pedals, so I never understood why someone would have a glorious valve amp with a cheap ss pedal in front.

    Your first sentence answers your second sentence. That's why we used them. Lack of a master volume or not enough gain.


    As to the widespread use of cheap solid state pedals - that's all that was available. Cheap solid state pedals. BOSS was the best quality of what was available. At that time a boutique was a place where women bought lingerie. Now people use expensive solid state pedals that cost a car payment.


    A stock Super Lead is a beautiful thing if you can stand in the same room with it. A JCM800 straight up is glorious but stick a BOSS Super Overdrive in front of it and forget about it. Drop a Duncan JB in your Les Paul and plug in and hang on.

    Quote from GearJocke

    Dalls Rangemaster was used by many well known guitarists. Didn't many guitarists used rack effects with built in OD's in the 80's?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…angemaster_Treble_Booster

    For sure..and many other treble boosters,some even custom made (eddie kramer for jimiand others) but this is not my point.


    My point is that there was never a "nerdy pedal hype"..This came in the late '90s and became "transcendental" and somewhat ZEN in the following decade.

    I've always thought that, absent needing a special overdriven or distortion sound, it would always be better to have tube amps driven hard. Of course, volume then becomes the issue. I used to run a multiple amp setup with at lease one amp pushed very hard into overdrive/distorition, with an attenuator on it, and used that for my lead sound. I've always thought that running a tube screamer or rat into a clean marshall was basically just hearing the pedal, not the amp so much. One of the reasons touring pro's have multiple amps (in addition to backups).


    with the Kemper, I find I use the amp's gain settings (and different performance slots or morphing) to do that. I still use a Kemper OD occasionally but I prefer the sound of the profiled amp kicked up several notches -- with Liquid Profiles, I think this will get even better.


    Certainly there are times when you want/need a good fuzz tone, which most amps don't really do when pushed.

    Quote from GCNC8068

    ... I've always thought that running a tube screamer or rat into a clean marshall was basically just hearing the pedal, not the amp so much. One of the reasons touring pro's have multiple amps (in addition to backups).

    The tubescreamer/tube driver with min gain and max volume works really well into an already cranked plexi, Fender, etc... This is proven to work very well. Most guitarists don't recognize that, in my experience, and put them in front of a clean platform and the result is poor.

    Quote from Nikos

    All the drives and distortion pedals came later in the 80s. I wouldn't say that people loved them. As they did not love the od-channel of the 2205/2210.


    My brother had a 2204, sounded great cranked until the cops came, but we both thought it was dumb, no gain until you crank it.


    I ended up getting a 2210, the shop had three of them that I was switching between, 2 sounded like ****, just fuzzy gain. But one sounded not fuzzy at all, and I still own it 28 years later. Sounds glorious with my Monte Allums modded SD-1, I've yet to find a profile that sounds as good.


    Only recently I discovered the pre '87 units were the less desirable units (I assume the 2 fuzzy ones I tried), that seem to give the 2210/05s a bad reputation.


    My brother swapped his 2204 for a Peavey Triumph 60. Possibly the dumbest trade ever